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Old 03-14-2007, 12:35 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acyrier
Isn't it crazy?! The couple guys at our club, when trying to get us to allow the brushless motors..that was one of their arguments..it would level the playing field, you didn't have to be a motor master to make them fast...blah. I said in time... people will figure out how to tune or tweak'em. Funny how that comes around.
You just got through watching me screw with a new 4300... Before... 3.1 second laps... After 2.9's. Hmmmmm......
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:38 PM   #47
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Hey Guys,

The timing of the our motors is a "non issue" and from my talks with the other manufactures their motors are in the same boat.

Turn the timing all the way up, the motor gets hotter, turn it all the way down, it stays cooler. These are Not Huge changes. It's like gearing up or down a tooth for the most part.

BL motor timing is NOT as effective as regular motor timing. This will be very hard for people to beleive and already assume we're lying, but many guys have experimented with this under controlled conditions and have come to the same conclusions we have.

The timing setup is no different on ANY of the Novak motors. They all have the same adjustments. The statemetns about the colored rings are for indentification, not to state they are not adjustable.

Now you're right, there is "some" effect of timing, but its' not enough to make the motor any faster. It is very similar like gearing up a half tooth, or gearing down a half tooth. Power of the motor is the power of the motor, the timing in BL simply moves the max torque and RPM around a little bit.

In the Faster motors like the 3.5 and 4.5 there may be more effect of the timing, but not from what I've seen working with racers/drivers/customers.

Adrian, if you'd like to actually know why the motors are different, feel free to email us anytime. You can always ask us directly instead. We're only an email away. Its not always about who's the fastest. The two motors are designed differently, going after different things. I'm sure you've heard alot, but get some facts when you can.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:43 PM   #48
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I don't know that the Mixing of the two classes would ever be possible with racing.

You could never keep both sides of the fence happy. As soon as one wins, thats why. their technology of choice is faster.

I don't think the intention is to mix them. I think the intention is offer racers slower BL motors so they can start using them.

I'll agree that under some conditions, the BL 13.5 is faster then some stock motors. But I won't ever agree always. A stock motor in the right hands is very fast. We're trying to offer that out of the box.

Someone email me or post, what they are doing to these motors and I'll glady try it out myself so we can see what's happening.

We can run ESC's with BL motors through a dyno we have and get hard numbers. I have load testers and can repeat testing again and again under the same loads. I just would like to know what everyone is "doing" to these things. I can see bearing upgrades possibly helping, but the timing thing is a none issue, what ever you gain, you'll loose from someplace else. It's physics.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:53 PM   #49
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Adrian,

How can you really 1.) assume and 2.) tout that the brushless motor and ESC manufactures are as clueless as you infer in your last post...?

Just as you said that the BL technology is not as "refined" as the brushed technology at this point is you must recognize that right now there are lots of large strides forward being made with the BL technology which results in alot of "leap frogging"... where you will see lots of changes made within the high end motors and ESCs in an effort to bring about a better, faster, and more reliable product.

With this ongoing R&D process comes lag times in which you must wait on proper testing and manufacturing to take place...and to say that LRP and Novak don't know what they are doing is just plain rude.

That would be like someone coming around and telling you that Schumacher has no idea what they're doing because at X race Schumacher driver/car Q wasn't as fast as Losi driver/car Z.

Should this whole R&D/technology growth process result in a "motor of the month" syndrome or uninformed backseat engineering from others in the industry on a public forum?

I don't think so...it's not fair to the customer and it's not fair to the manufactures who are ALL trying their hardest to make strides to make the best product they feel that they can.

The technology is not perfect ...but berating those who are putting in the most effort to try to get it better doesn't seem to do much good.

Everyone here has an agenda/bias/viewpoint...and that is totally fair... but you don't see Reto or I going into the schumacher thread and essentially saying that you're a bunch of morons because of how such and such a monster truck or something goes together or runs.

Afford the BL manufactures some respect because without the time/effort/money that we have put into this relatively new technology you wouldn't have available to you what is out there on the market: Very competitive, low maintenance systems for good prices.

This competition between the BL manufactures and the brushed motors results in better products for everyone.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:00 PM   #50
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Charlie, Steve,
Thank you for being here in the forums with us! It is greatly appreciated! It's always nice to have the manufacturer available at the public level. Keep up the good work.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:05 PM   #51
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I for one don't care how the motors compare to regular brushed motors. Brushless is the future love it or hate it. To see that BL is the future just check out the for sale forums...people can't give away their comm lathes anymore.

Steve/Charlie...THANK YOU very sincerely for the 13.5. Best product to hit the market since Spektrum.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:07 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acyrier
Isn't it crazy?! The couple guys at our club, when trying to get us to allow the brushless motors..that was one of their arguments..it would level the playing field, you didn't have to be a motor master to make them fast...blah. I said in time... people will figure out how to tune or tweak'em. Funny how that comes around.
for me the whole damn point of brushless is that I don't have to tweak them... for me, i am hoping these become the new "silver can" motors.. if you touch them, your cheating... motors should also be rated in watts, not winds... i'm sorry if it puts folks like the ones above out of business, but in the long run it is better for the hobby...
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:14 PM   #53
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oh yea, and this is for the haters..
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:24 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallyrc
... motors should also be rated in watts, not winds...
HA! Finally, a fellow believer! Thank you tallyrc, you put a smile on my face. Forever, I've been saying this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by James35
According to the laws of physics, there is only 1 true way of classifying these motors: The amount of power (Watts) produced at 7.2V.

(Kv rating is no good because it takes torque completely out of the equation. It's a rating with no load. It gives you an idea, but it's not an accurate way to measure power of a motor. You need to look at both RPM and Torque to determine the power of a motor.)

HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
I love to quote Big Jim who used to say:
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing."

It's been my opinion for some time, that ROAR should determine our classes by power. Examples:
Stock class: 100 Watts of power maximum
Super Stock class: 200 Watts of power maximum
Modified class: Unlimited power

This way, it does not matter who makes the motor, or how many windings it has, or the types of windings, or the magnets, bearings, or any technology etc.. This solution allows you to even mix and match brushed and brushless, and even different manufacturers. I think the only thing needed for this to happen is an increased availability of dynos.
I wonder if anyone else believes me and tallyrc.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:26 PM   #55
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What about people making or machining their own rotors and changing the diameter its all possible .I would like to see a dyno chart that shows all the brushed motors compared to the brushless .True the max power could be the same but with the power band being much narrower on the brushed it will slower.The brusless cars seem to have a ton more torque than a brushed And continue to gain speed thats why they are geared at 5 flat as opposed to 7 flat like a brushed ..
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:32 PM   #56
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Changing the timing doesn't change the power of these motors much if at all. All it does is change what gear you need to run.

More timing = smaller pinion and less timing = larger pinion. So, if you don't want to "tweak" on your motor just set the timing (to any point) and forget that it's even there.

For what it's worth, I'm finding that in 4 cell 12th it's better to run less timing and more gear because it tends to keep the speedo cooler. Don't know why, it just does for me.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:35 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AARON YOUNG
What about people making or machining their own rotors and changing the diameter its all possible .I would like to see a dyno chart that shows all the brushed motors compared to the brushless .True the max power could be the same but with the power band being much narrower on the brushed it will slower.The brusless cars seem to have a ton more torque than a brushed And continue to gain speed thats why they are geared at 5 flat as opposed to 7 flat like a brushed ..
anybody doing all that will be cheating with brushed motors too... they also have a fixed rotor diameter and can diameter and rules about not removing the magnets... what we need is an honest-to-god spec class like the old silver can days, but with these 4300/13.5s.. buy it, run it, love it, and at the end of the put it on the shelf and come back in a week...
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:39 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Weiss
Adrian,

How can you really 1.) assume and 2.) tout that the brushless motor and ESC manufactures are as clueless as you infer in your last post...?
Becuase I have spoken with them...ALL of them. I even sat across a table from your engineer and asked him questions he did not know the answers to. To be fair I asked the LRP and GM the same questions and they didn't know either.

I am a huge proponent of BL motors. My point are not intended to mock motor companies. I am just pointing out that everyone still has a way to go before they have BL motors figured out.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:41 PM   #59
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Bob Novak mentioned in another post that he's proposed some rules to ROAR about motor design that he felt would help keep things even, and pave the way for multiple manufacturers creating motors within certain limitations to help maintain parity. I believe he said the rules were similar to how their motors are currently designed, with some "tighter tolerances." Presumably they would cover things like rotor diameter, stator winding, etc.

Since there are no rules right now, we have an opportunity to try and get things right, and not end up with a dramatic motor war where companies are releasing new motors all the time. Lets be realistic, though. Even if a new motor was released once a year, buying a single $75 motor for an entire year would be just fine for most racers.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:16 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AARON YOUNG
What about people making or machining their own rotors and changing the diameter its all possible .I would like to see a dyno chart that shows all the brushed motors compared to the brushless .True the max power could be the same but with the power band being much narrower on the brushed it will slower.The brusless cars seem to have a ton more torque than a brushed And continue to gain speed thats why they are geared at 5 flat as opposed to 7 flat like a brushed ..
You must have not eaten your salad ...you're all grumpy and mean today!
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