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Cheating Stockers...

Cheating Stockers...

Old 03-30-2003, 01:04 AM
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I tried to post yesterday, but the site stopped working for me. . .

so here is my "yesterday's post":

I checked the 2002 ROAR rulebook and found the relevant sections -

5-26: No modifications are allowed that require disassembly or internal work on a stock motor.
This includes re-balancing, re-forming the can, re-epoxying, adding ball bearings, modification of
the brush hood system, removing the endbell, and adding or removal of material or parts. The use
of any device or attachment that allows the output shaft of a stock motor to ride in a ball bearing is
strictly prohibited.
This means that you can't "unwind" and then "rewind" an armature, as well as filing down the stacks to lessen rotating mass or polising the outside of the stack to reduce resistance. Another problem with "rewinding" is not only the number of winds, but once you get all that wire off, you can change the timing. . .

5-37: All rebuildable stock motor armatures must be wound using a "Mabuchi" cross wrap
technique, and a process that locks the commutator and the armature stacks so that the timing
cannot be changed without disassembling the motor
. The legal stock wind is a minimum of 64
inches of round 22 AWG (American Wire Gauge) wire, having a maximum wire diameter
(including insulation) of .67mm, resulting in no less than 27 continuous turns of wire on each pole.
A production tolerance of one turn on one pole only is allowed. There is no tolerance, however, on
the minimum length of wire, nor is there a plus tolerance allowed on the wire diameter.

5-38: Tabs on the armature’s commutator may only be “compression welded”. No after-market
welding or silver brazing will be permitted.
Soldering the leads connecting to the commutator is an easy gain of several percent.

5-41: No modifications to the physical construction of the motor can, endbell, or armature will be
permitted (e.g. adding or removing material from the armature stack, changing the brush hoods
from stand up to lay-down and visa-versa, relocating spring posts). If a motor shows signs of
tampering during post race inspection, the driver will receive no score for that qual or main.

5-43: The armature, motor can, and endbell of a rebuildable stock motor must all be from the
same motor manufacturer and can contain only components from the same model. No hybrid
motors or mixing of parts from different models will be permitted
ie. the Green2K's or such like aren't kosher.

Just some information.
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Old 03-30-2003, 05:52 AM
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ALL true!! The only place where chassis modifications puts you into another class or makes your car illegal is in TCS races...... If they had Tamiya classes at that track I could have understood it easier, but the only "Tamiya" track I know of is about 45 min. north of there....
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Old 03-30-2003, 12:40 PM
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I remember somebody mentioning earlier about how a guy got caught cheating at the 'Birds last year. well I dont know if this was the same thing but they actually had to strip a guy in the Legends class of the title because he came up illegal in post race tech. So cheating unfortunately is a part of RC. Its the job of racers and race directors together to police this sort of thing, whether its Stock, 19T, Legends, Trinity SS, whatever. Everybody has to remain vigilant in the midst of it all
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Old 03-30-2003, 04:39 PM
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Default c'mon guys, we're all in it for the fun,innit?

Salutations Earthlings!
there will always be people who would try to cheat as long as there are races.
the best thing to do is simply to ignore them entirely.
its precisely because they are anti-social losers who think the only way to be "one -up" on others is to have an advantage that they percieve undetectable.
anyways, i'm not that good a driver.so i'm personally not concerned about such these cheaters.
i think i'll just concentrate on improving my own skill first...
anyways.....i've can always rely on my trusty bottle of BBQ sauce if i need...
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Old 03-30-2003, 09:35 PM
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to Dell:
apologies for calling him a smelly part of the human body.seems like ppl with knowledge are usually honourable after all.

For club racing i have an idea:
every one hands over his/her motor and a random draw is made.meaning a random exchange of motors.
this happens in a certain class of competition in Magic the gathering card game.
Only the organizer will be allowed to mark who owns which motor.
Each participant will still have say 15mins to do as much tuning as possible to the motors in their hands.definitely not enough for rewinding.
At the end of the day....the motors are collected and are returned to the owners BY THE ORGANIZER.
sure....some people will bring duds but i believe everyone will do so.and still there will be 15 minutes to tune which still gives an edge to the experienced racer.
How bout it?it definitely solves the problem of someone dropping a modified arm into a stock can.
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Old 03-30-2003, 10:06 PM
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Interesting Concept
I am sure it works in "the gathering" but on the RC track, I don't think so.. I'll be damned if I am going to get stuck with someone elses dog of a motor. It also means I would have to carry additional brushes (stand up/ laydown/ extra wide) etc if I wanted to get the best out of any "lucky dip" motor that I might end up with.
I pay a lot of money to get the best gear for my car so why should I swap my finely tuned "Legal" Power plant for someones worn out, no life left on the comm, weak magnets, slug!!!

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Old 03-30-2003, 10:18 PM
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Default change motors?might as well change cars....

Salutations Earthlings!
that sounds positively interesting!
but what if i only have lay down brushes..... and i get a stand up or even a big brush motor? i am so dead.
it wouldn't be too popular... i think.but imagine the chaos....
it'll be fun if anything....
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Old 03-31-2003, 10:58 AM
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Default Re: change motors?might as well change cars....

Originally posted by foampervert
Salutations Earthlings!
that sounds positively interesting!
but what if i only have lay down brushes..... and i get a stand up or even a big brush motor? i am so dead.
it wouldn't be too popular... i think.but imagine the chaos....
it'll be fun if anything....
The brushes shouldn't be an issue - ROAR mandates laydowns for stock. . .

But there's NO WAY I'm going to let someone else cut the comm on my motor, digging it way down to get a faster run on it only to blow it up and not leave me any runs. . .
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Old 03-31-2003, 01:49 PM
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Default Re: Re: Cheating Stockers...

Originally posted by RichChang

I just wanted to clarify something. The kid that posted the below "for sale" post didn't know what he was talking about. I know Dell and he winds mod motors as a side business. However, he also starting buying stock motors and put springs and brushes on them. This was to get some extra income in addition to the mod motor business. Anyways, every stock motor is hand tuned and that is it. He does not wind stock motors.

The kid that bought the stock motor from him thought he was also winding stock motors since it had his normal motor label on it. That is false.

I know for a fact that Dell is NOT winding stock motors nor does he even have the time nor desire to do so.

This is a simple case of someone misunderstanding and in the end causing unfortunate problems.

I'm very glad you've clarified this issue some. I know 99.99% of the racers out there race clean and honest so I was a little mystified that someone would sell or produce these motors so blatantly. In the end it basically comes down to the ethics of the motor gurus out there to keep these kinds of things from hitting the tracks.

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Old 02-23-2004, 08:57 PM
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Regarding cheating at the snowbirds this year..... I guess Im not afraid to let the cat outta the bag as to who was caught!!!! I know you are all dying for me to out the dirty scum right??? Well here is the guy and what really happened.

The guy was me!!!! And no I do not nor have I ever knowingly cheated to win any race. I simply forgot to change the motor from the 4am practice session to the correct stock motor. It was an honest mistake on my part. I was devastated when tech told me I was Illelgal but then rules are the rules. I took my lumps and and that was that. If you think that I am a cheater than let me tell you a bit about me. I am currently the Florida State Series director. Anyone who knows me will vouch that the thing I stand for most is fairness. Honestly if I were going to "Cheat" do you think I would have just put a whole 19t motor in the car? I cant afford to cheat. I have a reputation to keep as a fair and honest person. So know you kow who it was and how it happened. Flame me if you have to but be advised I told the truth and nothing but the truth. I can sleep at night can you?
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Old 02-23-2004, 09:12 PM
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If it was an honest mistake then I doubt many people care. Plus if it was as obvious as having a 19t in the car... *But* if it was a 19t arm with a stock can and endbell it would be a different story.
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Old 02-24-2004, 06:29 AM
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Default Re: put his "money where his mouth is".

Originally posted by popsracer
I would REFUSE to have my LEGAL Motor torn apart at a club race, just because one person is crying foul. If I am lucky enough to have the the majority of the racers want to inspect my Motor, I would be willing to disassemble it myself for inspection, but the Motor remains in my custody. A truely ultra fast Stock Motor is very hard to come by and I would do everything in my power to keep it in my possesion intact (if I could ever find one).
I tried that once......

I reguarly started winning our 540 class at club meets... and had to pull my motor out after every final!!!! In a shaft drive (tb evo1) its a bit of a hassle to remesh a finepitch gear so i got sick of it... I told em to get f$%[email protected] cause the motor had been legal every other time and i didn't want to remesh it just to go home.

I got barred from the class and got a rep....

I always found it amusing that ppl even bother to cheat cause whats the point of an empty victory??? especially at a club race!!!

I have some friends who are always quick and even tho I know they don't cheat.. I have been told of all these "llegal" tricks they use... and i have heard from them that i have some tricks to...

Its funny how quick ppl are to have a go at someone who is fast.. but my from my exp.. the fast ppl don't need to cheat...

Its unfortanate that some ppl still try... I think any deliberate cheating should be rewarded with a ban (at least a yr) from any given track.... and a life time ban next time... It would be hard to say what is deliberate but some times its clear..
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Old 02-24-2004, 07:37 AM
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Default Tech. . .

just a pointer. . .

Once a stock motor here was teched because it was extremely fast, they just peeked inside and everything seem normal.

He won the race and was asked to open the motor, it was teched and winds counted it was 27.

Just before they will shout that its legal, low and behold someone noticed that the com was adjusted/advance/twisted to increase the timing!

Its hard to notice but it canbe done.

And using bearings and covering them up with brass washers so they'll look like bushings

Peace and happy racing!

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Old 02-24-2004, 09:29 AM
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You can try and test a motor with a multimeter, but you will get varying results. The best way to test a motor is with an LCR meter, which you can get for about 100 bucks.

You don't need to tear it down to check it at a club race. I know they do it at big races, just to remove all doubt......

There are tons of way to cheat with a stock motor, good thing is I have only seen a few posted here.....

And you would never gain 45% more power off a handwound stocker over a machine wound.....or really any handwound motor over a machine wound.

Figure most stockers are around 120 watts on a turbodyno.....it won't turn into a 175 watt motor....sorry...won't happen. You would probably see a 10-15% increase with the same size wire. If you start changing wire sizes, then of course the power can increase dramtically.

I used to play a game called Motor City Online (yes, if you played, I am the same EddieO). In that game, if you were faster, had cooler cars, more money, or a higher level......you were a cheater. You see that a lot in RC.......kinda lame, some people just can't take the fact someone is better than them.

Later EddieO
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Old 02-24-2004, 09:37 AM
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I find it is mostly the slow guys that complain the fast guys are cheats.Fact is at a club race why bother?? I get it all the time about how I got these special motors.Well facts are I let others run 'em.Once they get beat they kinda slack off and start asking questions.In stock club races it ain't the motor, it is the way you drive your car.Our fastest guy has by far the weakest motor in the house.He can be at the end of a strait and I can catch him before we enter the turns.Once we enter the turns he leaves me by about a half of lap.Anyone else see where I am losing time with a fast motor to a far better driver?
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