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Old 03-29-2003, 01:21 PM   #61
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Default put his "money where his mouth is".

Pinky;

I feel that if the Majority of the racers feel a persons Motor should be "Teched", then the "buy it" rule is acceptable.

What I am saying is, that for most clubs it is not feasable to do a pre-race Tech on every car.
For a single suspect to subjected to a Tech teardown is another matter as it is an uncommon occurance (I hope) at most tracks.

I would REFUSE to have my LEGAL Motor torn apart at a club race, just because one person is crying foul. If I am lucky enough to have the the majority of the racers want to inspect my Motor, I would be willing to disassemble it myself for inspection, but the Motor remains in my custody. A truely ultra fast Stock Motor is very hard to come by and I would do everything in my power to keep it in my possesion intact (if I could ever find one).
In all of the years that I've been racing (4+), I never seen anyone have their Motor torn down for inspection at a "Club" race. Not say it doesn't happen, I've just never seen it at the local level.

ghoulardi;

Unless you are "Custom" machining internal parts for your "Stock" Motors, I would not call this cheating.

Basicly, we are ALL doing this for FUN and it is easy to forget this fact and take things way too seriously.
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Old 03-29-2003, 01:49 PM   #62
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Ya know what, the way I see it, for all you guys out there that are racing legal, go ahead and let the crybabies cry. When it turns out that they are wrong, it makes them look all the worse.
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Old 03-29-2003, 02:11 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by dux
I think that tracks should enact a new rule: any cheater will have their motor smashed by the community motor-smashing-hammer
*whack*
...at the end of every race day, we remove the motors, Gallagher style.

As far as motors go, I would be hesitant to just give up my motor because a few guys protest it. I know my motors are legal ( and I don't think anyone at the track is doubting that ..heh.. ), but if I were to give up my motor, tear it down, find it to be legal, then use the $45 or whatever money amount was mentioned to buy a new motor. If the new motor is a dog, then I'm stuck with a dog.
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Old 03-29-2003, 02:41 PM   #64
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You don't have to destroy the motor to check winds, I think you can just check resistance with a multimeter. I agree a fast stock is worth more than it's face value and I wouldn't want to give it up.
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Old 03-29-2003, 02:46 PM   #65
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I think we all agree that it would be impossible to tech every car before or after a race at club level. Nor is it reasonable to expect someone, who has worked hard on squeezing the best out of his motor legally, to offer their "Suspected Illegal" motor up for teching where it will be unceremoniously ripped apart.
I totally agree with Pops in the fact that I would be very hesitant to give up a motor, that I knew was legal, so it could be ripped apart to satisfy the minds of a few jealous racers. I would be happy, as suggested, to take apart the motor in front of an official so it could be viewed without damage.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken but as far as taking winds of the motor or hand winding an armature well I am sure that most people could not do this without leaving some evidence of tampering behind. It is very hard to open those tabs on an armature to rewind it without leaving some evidence that it has been done. I would find it difficult to believe that one could achieve that factory finish that an original armature has. I would see it unnecessary to rip the winds off an armature to count them as I feel that a trained eye could spot tampering fairly easily.

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Old 03-29-2003, 02:52 PM   #66
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would it be possible to detect a stock setup motor with a multimeter?? I was just wondering too, if it would be possible to run a motor through a Dyno... Would the numbers put up by the dyno differ significantly if the motor was modified?? I just thought it would be cool if the numbers put up by the dyno didn't match the spec sheet, then only then should the motor be torn apart if needed.. I mean we have so many different things to do to make an RC faster, so would there be any way to register exactly how fast??
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Old 03-29-2003, 02:54 PM   #67
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talking about a "good" stock motor vs. a stock motor.. does that mean I can buy 2 stock motors, same model, same brand, at the same place, same time, and have different performance?? or does it take someone to tune it?
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Old 03-29-2003, 02:59 PM   #68
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you can buy 100 Stock motors out of the same box and they would all be differnet. Tuning is the key. there are so mony little tricks that you can do to stock motors that will make them perform well.

One Monterstock that I have I run all red springs on it. the other one I run Red and Green springs on it. They now run about the same. It all depends
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Old 03-29-2003, 03:02 PM   #69
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I have seen motors completely teched at a club race. We had two drivers who were ALWAYS faster than everybody else. The track owner came over during the heat races and marked their motors and told them they would be teched at the end of the day. He did this to show everybody that they weren't cheating, he did not suspect them of of anything.

In most cases, the teching of a motor does not need to be complete disassembly including counting winds. First thing I would suggest would be a quick dyno run. This should give some indication if the performance is not right for a stock motor. Next you could do a quick external inspection, it nothing turns up, open the can and take a look at the arm and bushings. If all of these convince the person doing the inspection, that would be the end. Only in the most extreme cases would you need to cut the winds and count them.

I agree that at club races there just aren't the resources to fully tech each car before racing, but it would be reasonable to supply the necessary tools for self teching. Scales, ride height, width, height are easily verified by the racer.

Most of all.... Have fun racing!!!

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Old 03-29-2003, 03:53 PM   #70
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I, like most people do not like cheaters.
I do however like heavy scrutineering.
I race at a club that really has no rules as far as electric sedan goes, so thats fine, no motor limit, no battery or tire limit, just put what you got on the track and run.

Now, I find this a good way to race because how can you cheat? if there are no rules, you cant break them.

Before I raced in RC, I ran 1/24th slot cars, which are very rule intense.
one thing I liked about racing and running the series up here was that I had the rule book on the counter at all times, the racers got the rule book at the beginning of the season and it was followed to the T, and there were never any accusations of cheating.

The reason there were never any accusations is because every car had to tech in at the beginning of a race, every arm was checked and at the end of the race, the podium car motors were torn apart.
Now these cars are obviously a lot smaller than RC cars, but there were just as many ways to cheat, and with such a small scale, very ingenious ways to cheat.
some things that ive seen
Bearings embedded in a bushing to make it look legal
undersized arms
Hand manipulated, machine wound arms (my fav)

All these things may look stock,and to the untrained eye do, but in a pre race tech, its not too hard to find if you are looking for all the right stuff.
The Hand manipulated arm was something I had to race against, and the owner of it was quite forward about what it was.
it was very much faster than the machine wound arm for the record.

I guess what im saying is, if you dont like cheaters, race in a class where its hard to cheat, or make sure that there are Tech inspectors that know what they are looking for.

As for accusations of cheater motors at a track, our rules where: if you accuse someone of cheating, it is 20 bucks to submit a formal protest.
That 20 bucks gets you:
The motor torn down at the end of the race
It is done publicly so that every racer can witness
if the motor is deemed to be illegal you get your 20 dollars back and the racer is kicked out of the event
if the motor is deemed legal, then your 20 goes to the motor owner.

So, you better be sure when you call someone a cheater, put your money where you mouth is or shut up and race.
This was our attitude, and is one that ive carried over to this wonderful hobby.

just my 3 cents worth (2 cents US with exchange)
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Old 03-29-2003, 05:33 PM   #71
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Default Re: Cheating Stockers...

Hi,

I just wanted to clarify something. The kid that posted the below "for sale" post didn't know what he was talking about. I know Dell and he winds mod motors as a side business. However, he also starting buying stock motors and put springs and brushes on them. This was to get some extra income in addition to the mod motor business. Anyways, every stock motor is hand tuned and that is it. He does not wind stock motors.

The kid that bought the stock motor from him thought he was also winding stock motors since it had his normal motor label on it. That is false.

I know for a fact that Dell is NOT winding stock motors nor does he even have the time nor desire to do so.

This is a simple case of someone misunderstanding and in the end causing unfortunate problems.

-Rich


Quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
I came across this 'for sale' post and wanted to share or more like warn all of the cheated racers in this area:

"hey i have a hand wound stock motor wound by Dell *****. he winds motorsnamed Big Blocks in our area (michigan). many of the fast guys in our area use this motor. This is a big block stock. as far as i know its the only hand wound stock i know of. great motor. used a couple races. will let go for $20. email me at ******"

I think that it is shameful and nothing sucks more than working your ass off and spending hard earned cash to support your racing program only to be cheated by people like these.

All out there be warned because I'm sure the motor was sold and I bet there are a lot more like 'em....
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Old 03-29-2003, 07:18 PM   #72
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Well an unfortunate misunderstanding turned into a very informative debate!!

A few years ago when I went to my first real race it was the first race of the season with a new race director....

I was registering, and I told them "stock touring" and the manager of the shop spoke up quite loudy and said, no he needs to be in Modified touring!! I was like what are you tlking about? I have a stock motor in my car!!!, and then he says, "yeah, but I sold you all of the upgrades for the car like titanium turnbuckles, aluminum cvd's, and that purple motor heat sink!!!!!"

He knows better today, but I still find it funny....... HMMMMM I haven't hurassed him about it for a year or so, gotta go down and pick with him....... LOL
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Old 03-29-2003, 07:41 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by IMPACTPLAYR
Well an unfortunate misunderstanding turned into a very informative debate!!

A few years ago when I went to my first real race it was the first race of the season with a new race director....

I was registering, and I told them "stock touring" and the manager of the shop spoke up quite loudy and said, no he needs to be in Modified touring!! I was like what are you tlking about? I have a stock motor in my car!!!, and then he says, "yeah, but I sold you all of the upgrades for the car like titanium turnbuckles, aluminum cvd's, and that purple motor heat sink!!!!!"

He knows better today, but I still find it funny....... HMMMMM I haven't hurassed him about it for a year or so, gotta go down and pick with him....... LOL

You have got to be Sh!tting me Thats funny

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Old 03-29-2003, 08:06 PM   #74
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Default Cheating Stockers

Guys;

WOW, you guys have been busy the last few hours.

It is my absolute belief that out of 100 identical stock Motors, you would be lucky to find a few(1-2%) that are Really top performers. Probably 10% would be above average, 10% way below average and the rest just average. (just a guess)

Unfortunately all of my motors are average or just slightly above, even with the help of a Robitronic Dyno. For the consumer that has to pay for his Motors, luck has alot to do with getting a really fast Stocker.

fastburn;

I wonder about "Hand assisting" a machine wound Arm. Would be very hard to detect, but how many Stock Motors are actually wound outside of Japan? When I raced slot cars, the way to handle the NON-tech issue was "Crash and Burn" races. Go too fast and jump the slot, it's all over for that heat.

IMPACTPLAYER;

That is REALLY funny!!
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Old 03-29-2003, 08:27 PM   #75
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it wasnt difficult until they started making north american group 10 and other lowtech motors.
They have machine winders now that do fantastic jobs, so hand assisting is obsolete.
That is one of the reasons I never liked lower end classes, 50% of the field was there to have fun, 40% wanted to race, and 10% wanted to win at all costs.
No thanks
Id sooner race in something that was all fun or all race, so I went the all race and competed in cobalt 12, group 27 and did some open racing.
It was kinda cool running in the midwest, cause unlike RC where a majority of the fast guys are in the west, in Slots, the majority are up here.

Ive definatly taken that attitude of all race to RC though, I get 90% of my enjoyment of this hobby during a race, the rest is bench racing with my tuners and friends, and building kits.
I think later on this year im going to take a stab at an MTX3
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