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Old 03-25-2003, 08:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: Cheating Stockers...

Quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
I came across this 'for sale' post and wanted to share or more like warn all of the cheated racers in this area:

"hey i have a hand wound stock motor wound by Dell *****. he winds motorsnamed Big Blocks in our area (michigan). many of the fast guys in our area use this motor. This is a big block stock. as far as i know its the only hand wound stock i know of. great motor. used a couple races. will let go for $20. email me at ******"

I think that it is shameful and nothing sucks more than working your ass off and spending hard earned cash to support your racing program only to be cheated by people like these.

All out there be warned because I'm sure the motor was sold and I bet there are a lot more like 'em....
I had heard that something along those lines was going on in Michigan, so your post is not surprising. Crap like that will ruin a class in a hurry because nobody who runs fair will come out and compete. On a side note, unless you have proof like this, don't accuse people of cheating or start rumors when maybe they just know a hell of lot about motors or got a good one. I have a monster stock that runs better than most 19t and guess what people say.
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Old 03-25-2003, 10:08 PM   #17
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Big block stocks is that like big block chevys. I think stock is fun but if you cant drive than worrying about everybody elses motors is foolish
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Old 03-25-2003, 10:32 PM   #18
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He ran a 19turn arm in a stock motor can. He was like in the E or something main.

Later,
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Old 03-25-2003, 10:36 PM   #19
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Crash is that the Big block stock.
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Old 03-26-2003, 02:52 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by gotpez
I've never understood the motivation to cheat for a win. I know that some people have a stronger desire for a win than others, but it still doesn't make sense. Even if you do win, it is tainted. You didn't play by the same rules, so it doesn't mean anything.

I was told a story by a local track owner about a cheater he caught. When confronted, the offender just said 'Everybody cheats, I just got caught'. This guy just didn't get it. He didn't have any remorse for his actions at all.

In my opinion, when a cheater is caught, they should be banned from the track. We need a zero tolerance policy with this. But, the process of catching a cheater needs to be done with discretion. It is too easy to have an accusation become a conviction by rumor.

Jeff Gilligan
Well spoken.

About motivation, maybe the thrill is to see if one can do it, without being catched? Or maybe they are desperate to get some nice attention, if they win?

But I dont understand it anyway. To me, this hobby is about having fun with the cars and the other people. If one cheat, one loose the respect from the other people. And then the fun is gone... Besides, it's much more exciting to race, if rules are equal. There might be more status about being in the A-main, but it's definately fun to run every classes. I still remember my first race many years ago.... great fun and excitement.
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Old 03-26-2003, 08:44 AM   #21
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It's a question of integrity for the hobby. We shouldn't reward those that cheat by placing them in the MOD class but reward those that don't cheat by banning the cheater from the track.

It's tuff to actually police this because as some of you have stated, some motors are better than others, maybe not but better tuned then others. I also have a BigJim P2K motor and half way through last season someone asked me what I had in my TC3 and I told them. What they failed to realize is that this was the same motor I have been running all season. I changed the brushes every now and then but it was like I couldn't possibly be faster than he was so I had to be cheating. He didn't come straight out and said that but that's the impression I got from him. So the perception will always be there if your fast or have a great day, you must be cheating.

If you win because you cheated, are you really a winner?
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Old 03-26-2003, 08:54 AM   #22
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I think that tracks should enact a new rule: any cheater will have their motor smashed by the community motor-smashing-hammer
*whack*
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Old 03-26-2003, 09:42 AM   #23
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One fear I have of this topic is the false accusations that happen.

We had a very fast driver that I know show up to race. He went out and ran and quickly beat my track record by nearly two laps. Very quickly one of the local racers pulled me to the side and told me they thought he was cheating. I quickly set the record straight. Not that I like having my record bested by two laps, but I know that this driver would never cheat.

The locals seemed to be of the opinion that nobody could be that much faster than us. The driver that pulled me aside does not attend any of the large national level events. He was not aware of how fast some drivers are.

Sometimes it may be a good idea for the track owner to do a tech inspection on a fast driver just to stop any false accusations. I've seen this done before and it can help the frustrated racers to feel they are not being cheated against.

Jeff Gilligan
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Old 03-26-2003, 09:52 AM   #24
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Here at our track the fast guys have no problem with you teching thier motors and have been known to sell the motor right out of their car. It is amazing how fast a smooth driver and a good legit motor can be.
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Old 03-26-2003, 04:14 PM   #25
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I though this was kinda interesting, I see all your points about cheaters, and I hate'em just as much as anybody. But with Mikes' post about a "hand wound" stock motor you guys might be interested in a little known R/C fact. I'm not up to date with the latest version of a rule book for our "hobby" but the last one I saw did not state a Stock motor needed to be machine wound. So long as you meet the dimensions for the can, the retail price, and get it approved it's a "legal" motor. The Technical part of the rule only reffers to the wire size and number of turns. Not the shape of the arm/rotors or how it's wound. So the rule is pretty broad considering what it's supposed to do.

Well I just thought that would interesting and add R/C knowhow to some. It may be different in the current rules but I don't think they changed anything major.

Happy Racing
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Old 03-26-2003, 04:22 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie
[B]I'm not up to date with the latest version of a rule book for our "hobby" but the last one I saw did not state a Stock motor needed to be machine wound. So long as you meet the dimensions for the can, the retail price, and get it approved it's a "legal" motor. The Technical part of the rule only reffers to the wire size and number of turns. Not the shape of the arm/rotors or how it's wound.
Very interesting point Charlie
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Old 03-26-2003, 04:59 PM   #27
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I think most of you have hit the nail on the head as to why some guys feel the need to cheat and what should be done to them when caught.
Personally I think that these cheaters have low self esteem and are seeking some admiration and recognition from their fellow racers. These are probably people who feel inadequate and generally fail in life.
I would get infinately more satisfaction in knowing that I have won a race through good driving skills, a well set up car and a "LEGALLY" tuned and tweaked motor.

Any numb nut can throw in a lower turn arm and be faster in a straight line than a LEGAL stock motor, but it takes a lot of precision and expertise to align those brush hoods properly and choose the best brush/spring combination and cut and tru the comm to perfection. For me that is what makes this hobby the most rewarding. In the end if I cut an extra few 10ths of a second off my personal best lap time due to tuning and driving Improvements thats as good as winning.

I think suspected cheaters in Stock racing should be monitored by the clubs regulating parties and the driver involved should be subjected to random motor checks and if caught cheating they should be banned from the club for one season for the first offence. (second offence should receive an Indefinate Ban) Other clubs should be notified of people who are caught cheating and left to make their own decision on whether to allow the offender to participate in their clubs racing.

In the end no one should be labelled a cheater unless they have been subject to scrutiny by the club and evidence has been found to substanciate the suspicions.
Just my 2 cents worth

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Old 03-26-2003, 05:14 PM   #28
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there was this one race i was lapped then the leader breaks and everyone starts dropping out like files. so everyone calls me a cheater i was so pissed. just cuase i won i must have cheated
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Old 03-26-2003, 05:46 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charlie
I though this was kinda interesting, I see all your points about cheaters, and I hate'em just as much as anybody. But with Mikes' post about a "hand wound" stock motor you guys might be interested in a little known R/C fact. I'm not up to date with the latest version of a rule book for our "hobby" but the last one I saw did not state a Stock motor needed to be machine wound. So long as you meet the dimensions for the can, the retail price, and get it approved it's a "legal" motor. The Technical part of the rule only reffers to the wire size and number of turns. Not the shape of the arm/rotors or how it's wound. So the rule is pretty broad considering what it's supposed to do.

Well I just thought that would interesting and add R/C knowhow to some. It may be different in the current rules but I don't think they changed anything major.

Happy Racing
Charlie
I dunno what ROAR officially says but under NORRCA rule GE.10 for "Stock Armatures", it states, “Machine wound armatures only, no hand wound stock armatures permitted.”
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Old 03-26-2003, 06:28 PM   #30
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Default Cheater, cheater....

I have personally seen how much faster a Professionally Hand tuned Stocker can go. No one (I know of) accused this guy of cheating because we all know him and he was up front about the motor being Hand Tuned by Big Jim.

As to the Monitoring, most clubs neither have the time, expertise or willingness to tech "Questionable" Motors, and for the most part, the Racers will be the Judge and Jury.
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