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Old 02-28-2007, 06:37 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by chris_dono
I don't see what all the fuss is about....

I'm very new to the sport so that's probably got a lot to do with it, but I've seen more about incorrectly charged NimH batteries than LiPos

Let people use whatever batteries they want as long as they make the weight surely ?

I've recently put a fair amount of cash into getting started, and chose a lipo battery.

I worked it out as:
3300/3700/4200 packs: 60 ish each (and you'd need 3 or so for a night's racing)
Lipo: 80 and you need one
Charger for nimh: a lot (up to 200 for some)
Lipo charger starts from 15 ish

for me starting out, it's a no-brainer...
The real sticking point on LiPo right now is that there is a lot of discussion about reducing voltage. At 7.2 volts, LiPo and NiMH meet, but if we look at 4 or 5 cell (4.8 or 6.0 volts) there currently isn't a LiPo solution.

So, if we don't move away from the 7.2 volt standard for most classes, LiPo has potential. But, there are quite a few racers that currently run in 4-cell classes, and we have no LiPo options yet.

LiPo has a lot of positives, but it isn't the end-all solution to the problems of R/C racing. I think that if the manufacturers are listening to all of these discussions, they might be able to put their heads together and come up with a viable alternative that gives us the flexibility of the 1.2 volt NiMH cell with the advantages of the LiPo technology.
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Old 02-28-2007, 08:32 AM   #122
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Adrian,

One of the problems I see with your proposal is that those rules are currently based on the Novak motors. We'll need some kind of rules and guidelines in place to open up the classes to allow other manufacturers to join the game as well. Novak have said themselves they welcome competition in this manner as it's good for the hobby.

So, is the the determining factor only the amount of turns in the motor? What about rotor size/composition/etc? Fixed timing? Sensored or sensorless? I haven't seen any hard facts on whether or not the two provide comparable performance on higher turn motors like a 10.5 or 13.5. It's hard to anticipate these things since there isn't a lot of information available yet, but it's important to know before defining motor rules for a class.
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Old 02-28-2007, 09:44 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Adrian,

One of the problems I see with your proposal is that those rules are currently based on the Novak motors. We'll need some kind of rules and guidelines in place to open up the classes to allow other manufacturers to join the game as well. Novak have said themselves they welcome competition in this manner as it's good for the hobby.

So, is the the determining factor only the amount of turns in the motor? What about rotor size/composition/etc? Fixed timing? Sensored or sensorless? I haven't seen any hard facts on whether or not the two provide comparable performance on higher turn motors like a 10.5 or 13.5. It's hard to anticipate these things since there isn't a lot of information available yet, but it's important to know before defining motor rules for a class.
The problem is that Novak got the brushless started in TC and set a standard and every other company that's following...is coming up with their own standards. Novak brought out the 4300, but the Mamba Max is a 4600 and the Reedy Neo Stars are labeled in turns but none of those are equivalent to the 10.5 turns on the Novak..etc..etc. Basically everyone is refusing to fall into line. If you make the rules based on current Novak standards then everyone else will have to fall in line to get into that market. Novak has more brushless choices and a good standard that has been adopted all over the country at many racetracks...even the Snowbirds had Novak 4300 classes. I'm not saying they deserve a monopoly but if there is specific classes set with specific turns or kv ratings and they are based on what Novak has already created..then so be it. Time to get all these companies on the same page.
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Old 02-28-2007, 10:07 AM   #124
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I think we would have to ask NOVAK to disclose how their motors are built and ask them to make them available to OEM guys.

13.5 turns of ? gauge wire, etc.

10.5 turns of ? gauge wire, etc.
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Old 02-28-2007, 10:20 AM   #125
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LRP already jumped on the bandwagon. At the Nuremberg Toy Fair they made the following product announcements, including a 13.5 turn brushless:


I'd be interested to see how they match up.
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Old 02-28-2007, 10:33 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Adrian,

One of the problems I see with your proposal is that those rules are currently based on the Novak motors. We'll need some kind of rules and guidelines in place to open up the classes to allow other manufacturers to join the game as well. Novak have said themselves they welcome competition in this manner as it's good for the hobby.

So, is the the determining factor only the amount of turns in the motor? What about rotor size/composition/etc? Fixed timing? Sensored or sensorless? I haven't seen any hard facts on whether or not the two provide comparable performance on higher turn motors like a 10.5 or 13.5. It's hard to anticipate these things since there isn't a lot of information available yet, but it's important to know before defining motor rules for a class.
This is the problem. I am not sure if will be possible to define specifications that everyone will be willing to agree upon. The radical solution I have mentioned before is to eliminate motors when defining classes. Rather than stock , modified, brushless motors and their respective classes, you define a class based on voltage/cell count and /or battery type.

An additional problem with stock and 19T BL motors is that there is really no difference in the constuction so prices will be the same regardless of which class the motor races in. All motors will be "modified price".

So make any motor is legal as long as it meets the dimensional requirements and perhaps some other specs such as rotor type etc. The classes using the open motor could be:
3-cell/3.7V Lipo - stock speed with high power BL
4-cell - 19t speed with highpower BL
5-cell - unknown
6-cell/7.4V LiPo - same as now

I am not sure this could really work, but I see it as a possibility in a world where we are seeing more and more smaller companies that are unwilling to work with one another to come up with a set of rules. I doubt any will be willing to give up their advantage. So let motor manufacturers do what they want with less specific rules, and limit speeds and separate classes by reducing voltage which is easy to regulate.
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Old 02-28-2007, 10:34 AM   #127
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It looks like Orion has a sensored 13.5 available very soon as well. Things are definitely getting interesting! We're finally going to see if turns is the main determining factor for speed.

What's the difference between the Eraser 13.5 and the Vector 13.5? I'm guessing one has a sintered rotor or something and the other doesn't?

That 15.5 looks interesting as well.
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Old 02-28-2007, 10:37 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
This is the problem. I am not sure if will be possible to define specifications that everyone will be willing to agree upon. The radical solution I have mentioned before is to eliminate motors when defining classes. Rather than stock , modified, brushless motors and their respective classes, you define a class based on voltage/cell count and /or battery type.

An additional problem with stock and 19T BL motors is that there is really no difference in the constuction so prices will be the same regardless of which class the motor races in. All motors will be "modified price".

So make any motor is legal as long as it meets the dimensional requirements and perhaps some other specs such as rotor type etc. The classes using the open motor could be:
3-cell/3.7V Lipo - stock speed with high power BL
4-cell - 19t speed with highpower BL
5-cell - unknown
6-cell/7.4V LiPo - same as now

I am not sure this could really work, but I see it as a possibility in a world where we are seeing more and more smaller companies that are unwilling to work with one another to come up with a set of rules. I doubt any will be willing to give up their advantage. So let motor manufacturers do what they want with less specific rules, and limit speeds and separate classes by reducing voltage which is easy to regulate.
Is it feasible to consider using the ESC to limit voltage, or would that be too demanding on the electronics? Could we define our classes by voltage and use ESC's to regulate them? Lets just assume for the sake of discussion that there would be ways to easily detect cheating.
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Old 02-28-2007, 11:41 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
Sorry, what's the unfair advantage?

In any competitive sport or hobby, there is always the impression (and sometimes truth) that money can buy an advantage. It might be unfortunate, but I don't see why that is unfair. It's just part of the hobby.

As long as we all play by the same set of rules, there is no UNFAIR advantage, just a POTENTIAL advantage. I've seen many drivers with outdated equipment and racing on a shoestring budget whoop up on the big spenders.
If the weight limit is unachievable unless you have the latest kit/hop-ups, it would be disheartening for any newcomers that want to improve. They'll think that they need the latest/greatest stuff.

The also poses the problem that to reach the new weight limits with the cells getting heavier, the cars are going to have to be lighter, which inevitably means weaker.

I've forgotten who said 'Light, fast. cheap....pick two!'

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Old 02-28-2007, 11:53 AM   #130
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After talking to the guys at LRP and Novak I get the impression that they do not 100% understand what going on in thier own motors. The problem is that Novak and LRP are thinking in terms of inside out brushed motors and not all the rules that apply to BR motors apply to BL motors.

For example:

Winds are a great way to describe the power out put of a BR motors. Such is not the case in BL motors.

A 4.5 with a large diameter magnet can out out more power than a 4.5 with a small diameter magnet (less driveable but more power none the less).

A 7.5T delta terminated motor is faster than a 4.5T Wye terminated motor

A 13.5 with big wire and a minimalist stator (no rules against this) can be made to put out as much power as a 4.5.

What about slotless motors like the Mamba Maxx and most other motors other than the Novak, LRP and GM units?

FYI, ROAR knows about this and this is why there are no ROAR BL Stock or Spec Mod classes right now. I guess they do know what they are doing sometimes

BL motors are like the wild west right now. The cream has not risen to the top yet but they are out there anyways.

I suggest sticking to the ROAR rules (with some improvments to the rules) for 13.5 and 10.5 classes and allowing Mod to run whatever fits in a 36mm x 54mm box
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Old 02-28-2007, 12:04 PM   #131
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Therein lies the current problem with any kind of limited brushless class. The rules are perhaps too open to interpretation right now to create fair competition among manufacturers in a limited class, like 13.5 or 10.5. Is the answer that an organizing body gets together, defines the rules, and then waits for companies to make motors that conform to them? Do you base the rules on the most popular current design (Novak) so there's at least something that can be used in the class, and then wait for other companies to catch up?

None of this means as much in mod, but in a lot of cases, a majority of club racing is stock or 19T, so there's clearly a strong demand for a spec brushless class with speed that's similar to those two.
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Old 02-28-2007, 12:11 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
Sorry, what's the unfair advantage?

In any competitive sport or hobby, there is always the impression (and sometimes truth) that money can buy an advantage. It might be unfortunate, but I don't see why that is unfair. It's just part of the hobby.

As long as we all play by the same set of rules, there is no UNFAIR advantage, just a POTENTIAL advantage. I've seen many drivers with outdated equipment and racing on a shoestring budget whoop up on the big spenders.
1400g it is then
1350g to low 1435g to high
meet in the middle stop arguing 1400g it is
sorted
next ...
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Old 02-28-2007, 12:13 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_dono
I don't see what all the fuss is about....

I'm very new to the sport so that's probably got a lot to do with it, but I've seen more about incorrectly charged NimH batteries than LiPos

Let people use whatever batteries they want as long as they make the weight surely ?

I've recently put a fair amount of cash into getting started, and chose a lipo battery.

I worked it out as:
3300/3700/4200 packs: 60 ish each (and you'd need 3 or so for a night's racing)
Lipo: 80 and you need one
Charger for nimh: a lot (up to 200 for some)
Lipo charger starts from 15 ish

for me starting out, it's a no-brainer...
yeah i with you
i have a orion lipo saves sheds load on time & money using one
but i can`t go from one club to another without changing my gear to suit there rules they might have that is different from the next club i go too.
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Old 02-28-2007, 12:31 PM   #134
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just done 5 cell IB change for my FK04 took 1 cell & 30g off .cost me no money to do this
it weigh`s 1411,still got Fan & a Novak cpaciter on there
balence wise ,very impressed
i took the cell of the speedo/reciever side ,this side has the fan & Capaciter on aswell & it`s not bad ,not perfect ,but i`ve had worse sidexside battery car to drive

anyway down club thurs eve with me co27t 1411/5 cell
racing against the 6 cell/1500g brigade
let you know how i get on or not
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Old 02-28-2007, 06:25 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Therein lies the current problem with any kind of limited brushless class. The rules are perhaps too open to interpretation right now to create fair competition among manufacturers in a limited class, like 13.5 or 10.5. Is the answer that an organizing body gets together, defines the rules, and then waits for companies to make motors that conform to them? Do you base the rules on the most popular current design (Novak) so there's at least something that can be used in the class, and then wait for other companies to catch up?

None of this means as much in mod, but in a lot of cases, a majority of club racing is stock or 19T, so there's clearly a strong demand for a spec brushless class with speed that's similar to those two.

Great points. I think you've hit on the solution for the rules too. Take the current popular choice (Novak 13.5 and 4300) and make the Spec motor rules based on these designs.

Then, when ROAR or any other sanctioning body gets a new motor for approval, they need to test it not just based on the rules as written, but check the performance against the standard. In Spec classes, new motors should NOT increase performance like we've been seeing in the current stock and 19 turn classes.
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