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Old 03-14-2007, 10:16 PM   #436
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Originally Posted by Disaster
That goes right to my point of what is wrong in competitive racing. How much does a motor cost you in time and money after you've done all that? Also, just how long is that motor good for, before you have to replace it...and repeat the whole process all over?

That is exactly what deters people like me from getting involved in racing.

If, on the other hand, there was a motor out there which was very consistent, that didn't have variation in brushes and timing to add to the variation.....that didn't require a fancy break-in procedure, that didn't wear out after a race or two.......
.....oh wait.....there is.....it is called brushless....

When you factor in all the culling of the herd, break-in and wearout...brushless is actually cheaper and certainly less daunting for newbies.
I agree as far as brushless but it isn't really low cost (at first) and a 13.5 with sintered rotor is faster than a stock motor (before anyone spouts off about that, go read the threads by people testing them). Not really a good place for a new person who's never really wheeled a car to start. If they release a slower brushless like a 17.5 or so then yeah, that'd be even better but with what is CURRENTLY available the best place for a newbie to start is Silvercan...HANDS DOWN, PERIOD. Stock with 5-cell would still be to fast, limiters don't even exist for R/C and throwing new folks in with guys who have been racing stock for a long time is very disheartening since they will be getting beat by 5+ laps EASILY every race. That's not good for them and it isn't good for the hobby. If you have a better idea for a place for newbies to start I'd be glad to hear it but nobody has come up with ANY viable options other than stuff that doesn't even exist or a complete redesign of the battery rules for everyone when it was made CLEAR this last year that people don't want to go to 5-cell...in the U.S. at least.
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Old 03-15-2007, 01:54 AM   #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan van Steeg
forget '5cell 27 turn'. It's to slow.

We have test it already and '5cell 19 turn'(element V2) is a compatible with '6 cell 27 turn'. We need new stock motor's for the old 19 turn speed. Something like a 14 turn. The step form '19 turn 5cell' to 'brushless 3.5 5cell' is to big.
BULLSHIT !
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Old 03-15-2007, 02:13 AM   #438
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There are some who don't have an issue with 6 cell 27t/19t and if something were to happen at club level, it is up to the club not the governing body, in the end, it makes rules for it's national series..... and I don't realy see a place for 19t and definately stock in a national series, not like ou guys will be going to the Euro's or worlds Stock champs....

Silvercan - just drop the thing about cheating on them, there are a lot of other things than cranking the timing, like skiming the comm makes a difference. Also, how level is a level playing feild, when you got to buy a batch of motors to find one or two good ones.... at least with Stock, 99% of motors are good, they just need the right brushes and springs.
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Old 03-15-2007, 06:27 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by *SBH*
I am not thinking about the brand of paint, but probably there are also some differences there - But the amount of paint sprayed on Your body can vary a lot from one painter-dude to another. Off course air brush can do the trick lighter than spraycans. Think about it, its the highest point on Your car
OK, can you tell me what your body weights (painted), and what kind of body that is.
I use (or will use) the Protoform Mazda 6 Speed (or maybe the Mazda 6 Leightweight, depends on track)
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Old 03-15-2007, 06:29 AM   #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DA_cookie_monst
There are some who don't have an issue with 6 cell 27t/19t and if something were to happen at club level, it is up to the club not the governing body, in the end, it makes rules for it's national series..... and I don't realy see a place for 19t and definately stock in a national series, not like ou guys will be going to the Euro's or worlds Stock champs....

Silvercan - just drop the thing about cheating on them, there are a lot of other things than cranking the timing, like skiming the comm makes a difference. Also, how level is a level playing feild, when you got to buy a batch of motors to find one or two good ones.... at least with Stock, 99% of motors are good, they just need the right brushes and springs.
Now you wanna drop it... . Cost of a new stock motor is $40 or so...cost of brushes and springs..another $20 or so...that's $60. Cost of a Silvercan motor...$15 and if you buy in bulk from certain places where many of us get ours...$7 a piece. Buy 5-6, keep the 1 or 2 that produces the best power sell the rest on Ebay. That's a little over $40 investment, and you'll get at least $20 of that back selling the old ones on Ebay. Silvercan motors get BETTER the more you use them until they do finally die but that can be anywhere from 4-6 months if you race a couple times a week. How many times in that 4-6 months will you have to replace brushes or springs? Since I do race Silvercan and many people I know race Silvercan and there are threads for Silvercan...it's a viable option for low-cost beginner racing. You have all these arguements against them as a beginner class...were you beaten up by a Silvercan motor as a child? Why the hate for them? Low cost, no setup, no parts to replace, don't need an expensive ESC...yeah, maybe that wouldn't be an option for beginners. Affordable racing isn't what new people want...they should all just go buy the hot new $500 chassis and throw money into a MOD brushless motor and destroy their car every week. I'm sure broken parts, melted electronics, and losing will do so much to help keep them interested in racing.
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Old 03-15-2007, 06:44 AM   #441
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I don't hate them, just not my thing.

Checkpoint 19t motor, 33, pair of brushes 7.50, rebuild, after 40 runs.
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Old 03-15-2007, 06:54 AM   #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DA_cookie_monst
I don't hate them, just not my thing.

Checkpoint 19t motor, 33, pair of brushes 7.50, rebuild, after 40 runs.
So that would be roughly:
Checkpoint 19T motor: $63
Pair of brushes: $15
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$78

Then, also add motor maintenance stuff like comm lathes...etc...several hundred $$$$

Yep, let's have new folks start there. So much cheaper then my suggestion.
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Old 03-15-2007, 07:03 AM   #443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
So that would be roughly:
Checkpoint 19T motor: $63
Pair of brushes: $15
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$78

Then, also add motor maintenance stuff like comm lathes...etc...several hundred $$$$

Yep, let's have new folks start there. So much cheaper then my suggestion.
How can you compare a silvercan motor to a 19t motor?

And who said anything about starting new folks with a 19t motor? Merely how much cheaper a checkpoint is to use, than a different motor.

This place is getting a little confusing....
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Old 03-15-2007, 07:12 AM   #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team
How can you compare a silvercan motor to a 19t motor?

And who said anything about starting new folks with a 19t motor? Merely how much cheaper a checkpoint is to use, than a different motor.

This place is getting a little confusing....
Yep, everyone fights against something that works and has proven itself every year in the Tamiya Championship Series and that's the good old reliable silvercan as a starting point for new racers. They tell me how easy it is to cheat with them, which gets shot down by someone who KNOWS MORE about silvercan. Then they say Silvercans are to expensive...and show prices of 19T motors. I don't get it either but if he thinks 19T is a better place to start...he's an idiot then. Oh, wait...he's been into R/C since '89 so we have to listen to what he says because it must be right.
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Old 03-15-2007, 07:24 AM   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ztrezz
OK, can you tell me what your body weights (painted), and what kind of body that is.
I use (or will use) the Protoform Mazda 6 Speed (or maybe the Mazda 6 Leightweight, depends on track)
I dont remember exactly, but I know there was 15gram difference
I think around 90-95 gram for my Mazda Speed 6
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Old 03-15-2007, 07:25 AM   #446
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Dude, you realy got to chill out, I havent' said silvercans are duff, or pointelss and did say that one of my kids use them. And did say that silvercans can be a good indoor motor.

The fact is, most people race, for speed not how much it costs, cause if we all looked at how much we spend on it, it gets well expensive. I know for a fact that if I wanted to run silvercan, and competitively, it isn't cheap, as you got to try and pull all the weight out of your car, lightweight shells, free-rolling bearings, etc.
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Old 03-15-2007, 07:40 AM   #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DA_cookie_monst
Dude, you realy got to chill out, I havent' said silvercans are duff, or pointelss and did say that one of my kids use them. And did say that silvercans can be a good indoor motor.

The fact is, most people race, for speed not how much it costs, cause if we all looked at how much we spend on it, it gets well expensive. I know for a fact that if I wanted to run silvercan, and competitively, it isn't cheap, as you got to try and pull all the weight out of your car, lightweight shells, free-rolling bearings, etc.
I never suggested them for experienced racer either. Just as a viable alternative for newbies to learn to drive and everyone attacked me for it.
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Old 03-15-2007, 08:18 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
...Buy 5-6, keep the 1 or 2 that produces the best power sell the rest on Ebay....it's a viable option for low-cost beginner racing....
I think as soon as you are talking about buying motors and sorting them you are walking away from the concept of fair and simple racing for beginners.

I get the impression that slower classes often turn out to be more opportunities for experienced people to win...which defeats the purpose of them.
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Old 03-15-2007, 08:19 AM   #449
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not me, I only stepped in about being able to pull a silvercan apart. I think if there is a healthy scene of racers willing to use them, they are great.
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Old 03-15-2007, 08:35 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
I agree as far as brushless but it isn't really low cost (at first) and a 13.5 with sintered rotor is faster than a stock motor (before anyone spouts off about that, go read the threads by people testing them). Not really a good place for a new person who's never really wheeled a car to start. If they release a slower brushless like a 17.5 or so then yeah, that'd be even better but with what is CURRENTLY available the best place for a newbie to start is Silvercan...HANDS DOWN, PERIOD. Stock with 5-cell would still be to fast, limiters don't even exist for R/C and throwing new folks in with guys who have been racing stock for a long time is very disheartening since they will be getting beat by 5+ laps EASILY every race. That's not good for them and it isn't good for the hobby. If you have a better idea for a place for newbies to start I'd be glad to hear it but nobody has come up with ANY viable options other than stuff that doesn't even exist or a complete redesign of the battery rules for everyone when it was made CLEAR this last year that people don't want to go to 5-cell...in the U.S. at least.
So let me see if I understand your concerns.

1. Brushless is faster than current stock.
2. Faster is more difficult for newbies to handle.
3. Faster will break more stuff...especially for newbies who will crash more.

Those are good points, and maybe we do need a slower spec motor for newbies.

However, if we restate the goals, perhaps we will open up other solutions.

The goal is to have an inexpensive, simple starting point for new racers to compete. It should be fun and they should feel like winning is a possibility...maybe not on their first race...but in the near future.

With that in mind, I'd restate the goals like this.

1. Cars that don't have too steep a driving curve....ie...too fast and too hard to control.
2. Races that are competitive...ie...not being lapped over and over by way more experienced drivers.
3. Cars that won't break everytime the rider makes a mistake and slides into the wall.

There are several things to look at but here are some proposals.

1. 4WD TC is pretty easy to control...easier with power limits. Perhaps a spec. motor is a good idea...but it shouldn't require sorting or any maintenance or break-in procedures.
2. We need to separate the best drivers from the worst. This is tougher to do when you are already spread thin trying to support multiple series.
3. Make tracks more forgiving. Set minimum car weights such that component strength isn't compromised.

We need to get back to focussing on getting more people into the sport and retaining them by making it:

1. Inexpensive
2. Easy, low maintenance (ie. high racing to wrenching ratio.)
3. FUN
4. Addictive

Let keep the lines of communication open. There has been some great discussion...and some not so great insult exchanges.

Remember, everyone is entitled to their opinions. If someone is ignorant of something, educate them politely. That is the spirit we need in this forum and in RC racing in general.
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