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Old 03-12-2007, 08:11 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by ttso
I saw some progress on this thread.....

First againster said it would be too slow...
Second againster said it would make battery hotter...
Now againster said it would be costy...

Something never change, something do change..


I agree this threads been about 3 different things. Mr. Jollies been a good man about it. The right thread will come along. I hope when the right thread comes along it will be more dedicated to the threads purpose.
But when you think about it every morning I can get up and catch a lot on one thread. Later.

I agree go LiPo+BL is cheaper, but shouldn't something like "LiPo+BL is cheaper, should be legal" should stay in its own thread call "Make LiPo+BL legal for stock racing"?
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Old 03-12-2007, 09:22 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by ttso
I saw some progress on this thread.....
....I agree go LiPo+BL is cheaper, but shouldn't something like "LiPo+BL is cheaper, should be legal" should stay in its own thread call "Make LiPo+BL legal for stock racing"?
I admitted I was thread crashing. However, if you look at the opening comments, it wasn't so much a "crash" as taking the conversation into another direction...opening new avenues for consideration. We are still addressing the the goals behind going from 6 to 5 cells.

Also, I bet if you look you will already find a couple threads on Lipo and Brushless relative to sanctioned racing. I think Lipo and Brushless only address a some of the maintenance and cost issues.

What we are really starting to look at...on a bigger picture level, is "capping TC racing costs to attract and retain more racers." (hmmm...sounds the the name of a good thread?)

The added drivers that it would attract would more than make up for any lost revenue in all the expensive components and maintenance items.

With a larger racer base, we'd see more and better tracks....more hobby shops...and more money in our pockets to spend on fun gadgets (maybe other race series.)

With the decreased maintenance we'd have more time on our hands to spend racing and help out marshalling.

Last edited by Disaster; 03-12-2007 at 09:34 AM.
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Old 03-12-2007, 09:44 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by UN4RACING
Yeah so if they put a 13.5 in there they could call it an entry level racing kit, or beginner kit. Rather than just a RTR that is more focused on street bashing.
Most street racers want the hotter mods any way after they buy one to find the speedo wont handle the hotter motors. Maybe they could make special order kits for each case.
How 'bout the previous suggestion. Let them put whatever motor in there for the capped cost. If the class is too fast, limit the speed with a power limiting ESC. Someone should be talking to the big ESC suppliers to see what that would take.

Another possibility, though more expensive, is to add the power limiter between the ESC and the motor. It could be something that is rented...like transponders can be.
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:46 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by *SBH*
Hi guys.
It's a great idea and it works. In Denmark we have also tested it, and we will go to 5 cells and 1350grams in all classes 27,19 and mod from 1/4-2007
All tests shows that laptimes are the same, corner speed is higher, and wear is a lot less.
Try it! - Its so easy to take a cell out and go to the track and test it. In theory it sounds bad and slow, I felt the same, but IRL it works great.

Søren
And what did you do to make the car exactly weighs 1350gr?
My car is at the moment 1415gr (with Mazda 6 body (no lightweight).
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:04 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
...that thread and many emails made ROAR change it's mind in regards to cell changes and so the U.S. is still 6-cell. That in itself is enough of an arguement against 5-cell...people don't want it.
Is it people don't want it for whatever reason it's? Or simply ROAR don't want it for whatever reason it's?

And.. how many people/club really care/follow ROAR rule? ...
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:19 PM   #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttso
Is it people don't want it for whatever reason it's? Or simply ROAR don't want it for whatever reason it's?

And.. how many people/club really care/follow ROAR rule? ...
Go to post #109 on this thread where AdrianM, who was a member of the ROAR Excomm until January 1 2007, states quite plainly that 4-cell was a go for this season by ROAR until PEOPLE made it known that it wasn't what they wanted.

Most clubs in the U.S. base their classes on ROAR rules. The only exceptions are brushless and LiPo, both of which are forcing ROAR to look into MAJOR rules changes. Clubs, though, will race whatever the majority at their track want...because they need the racers to stay open.
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:51 PM   #382
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I have been trying not to get dragged into this discussion. just want to comment on the Voltage/Power limiter....

We are trying to keep things simple, and relatively cheeap... Adding another piece of hardware that must be purchased and give the racer another point to cheat/ or to bitch that his his/her limiter is limiting too much .. blah blah, is probably not the best option.

I can tell you that the Electric On Road Comittee has discussed the 4 cell situation and WE NEVER suggested to the EXCOMM to move in that direction.

There are a bunch of things that need to be fixed with TC Racing, and none of them have a simple answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Disaster
How 'bout the previous suggestion. Let them put whatever motor in there for the capped cost. If the class is too fast, limit the speed with a power limiting ESC. Someone should be talking to the big ESC suppliers to see what that would take.

Another possibility, though more expensive, is to add the power limiter between the ESC and the motor. It could be something that is rented...like transponders can be.
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Old 03-12-2007, 12:55 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by TimPotter

I can tell you that the Electric On Road Comittee has discussed the 4 cell situation and WE NEVER suggested to the EXCOMM to move in that direction.

There are a bunch of things that need to be fixed with TC Racing, and none of them have a simple answer.
Might want to talk to AdrianM then...that post clearly states that 4-cell was a "done deal" until PEOPLE spoke up and I do believe that when the discussions were happening...he was on the Excomm.
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Old 03-12-2007, 01:00 PM   #384
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You have to keep in mind that the Electric Onroad Commitee discussions and the EXCOM discussions are completely seperate.

One may be doing something the other is not aware of....

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Old 03-12-2007, 01:05 PM   #385
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Point being, is that the people that make the rules suggestions related to On Road Electric classes were not a driving force behind it. I chat with Adrian almost on a daily basis.


Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
Might want to talk to AdrianM then...that post clearly states that 4-cell was a "done deal" until PEOPLE spoke up and I do believe that when the discussions were happening...he was on the Excomm.
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Old 03-12-2007, 01:26 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
Point being, is that the people that make the rules suggestions related to On Road Electric classes were not a driving force behind it. I chat with Adrian almost on a daily basis.
Cool. Since I'm not on any ROAR commitees I don't really understand how all the communication between them works. You're right though..there are a bunch of things with TC racing that needs fixed and yep...the answers won't be simple. I say, take a page from Tamiya Championship Rules and limit chassis in some classes (tub style or NO carbon fibre), add silvercan motor rules like Canada TCS did where the motor can't pull more then 1.3Vs and allow LiPo in all classes (only if they are hard cased such as the Orion/Peak 3200s and 4800s). Just a few suggestions from something that works well year after year without many complaints (other then not allowing LiPo which is the only real complaint).
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Old 03-12-2007, 03:57 PM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
I have been trying not to get dragged into this discussion. just want to comment on the Voltage/Power limiter....

We are trying to keep things simple, and relatively cheeap... Adding another piece of hardware that must be purchased and give the racer another point to cheat/ or to bitch that his his/her limiter is limiting too much .. blah blah, is probably not the best option.
A Voltage/Power Limiter could well be the answer. A limiter would give the desired result without needing to reduce the number of cells etc and is certainly worth considering. If other 'solutions' prove not to be popular or to not work out then a 'plug-in limiter' option may yet prove to be the solution to the problems facing TC, possibly a last resort option.

A limiter would not have to be purchased they could be 'loaned' out by the club (or possibly by BRCA/ROAR etc) much like transponders are already. The cheat and bitching arguments raised against limiters is not a problem anyone with a complaint or accused of cheating would simply have their limiter swapped for another one chosen at random. The limiters would all be manufactured to the same specification/tolerances, we all race with differing motors and batteries with differing performance anyway so no real problem. The end result just needs to be slower cars and less stress on the equipment.

As this thread relates to 5 cell it won't affect racers outside Europe and the UK. I did hear that someone somewhere mentioned that limiters are being considered or tested, maybe that's what's needed some testing to see if limiters are the answer or at least a possibility. Maybe we should not dismiss them without at least trying them first.
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Old 03-12-2007, 04:05 PM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry_S
I disagree, a Voltage/Power Limiter could well be the answer. A limiter would give the desired result without needing to reduce the number of cells etc and is certainly worth considering. If other 'solutions' prove not to be popular or to not work out then a 'plug-in limiter' option may yet prove to be the solution to the problems facing TC, possibly a last resort option.

A limiter would not have to be purchased they could be 'loaned' out by the club (or possibly by BRCA/ROAR etc) much like transponders are already. The cheat and bitching arguments raised against limiters is not a problem anyone with a complaint or accused of cheating would simply have their limiter swapped for another one chosen at random. The limiters would all be manufactured to the same specification/tolerances, we all race with differing motors and batteries with differing performance anyway so no real problem. The end result just needs to be slower cars and less stress on the equipment.

As this thread relates to 5 cell it won't affect racers outside Europe and the UK. I did hear that someone somewhere mentioned that limiters are being considered or tested, maybe that's what's needed some testing to see if limiters are the answer or at least a possibility. Maybe we should not dismiss them without trying them first.
What about the people that just "route" the wiring around the limiter? I know there isn't much room anymore on most chassis but people would simply find a way to "dummy" wire the limiter in while the real wires were hidden. Oh, that would also be an added expense to tracks that are ALREADY STRUGGLING!!!
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Old 03-12-2007, 04:14 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
What about the people that just "route" the wiring around the limiter? I know there isn't much room anymore on most chassis but people would simply find a way to "dummy" wire the limiter in while the real wires were hidden. Oh, that would also be an added expense to tracks that are ALREADY STRUGGLING!!!
I'm sure tech inspection would spot any obvious cheating. If a car was running with no limiter it would stand out on the track as being suspicious! If anyone has THE answer to the problems, ie run 5 cells or 4 cells or change other things then great I would really like to see a solution. As I said it's a possibility that could be considered, it works elsewhere outside of rc car racing.
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Old 03-12-2007, 04:19 PM   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry_S
I'm sure tech inspection would spot any obvious cheating. If a car was running with no limiter it would stand out on the track as being suspicious! If anyone has THE answer to the problems, ie run 5 cells or 4 cells or change other things then great I would really like to see a solution. As I said it's a possibility that could be considered, it works elsewhere outside of rc car racing.
At large races where there is plenty of people to tech a car maybe it would work...at the club level...no way. Most places have MAYBE 2 people working. I've never even seen a car actually tech'd at our track...but it also could be that everyone there does seem to enjoy playing fair...it's nice to race with decent folk. Most places wouldn't even bother though due to cost. They'd just do what they've always done.
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