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Old 03-11-2007, 12:56 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by chris_dono
Uhm... that's not startup kit as you've mentioned for other things in your list.

Remove the following:
top-end charger (not needed to get started)
comm lathe (not needed to get started)
one motor (only need on to get going)
one-way (not needed until you can drive )
various upgrades (run out of the box)
set up station (build to kit specs)

Over the course of a year, maybe $300 for a set of wheels/tyres. Assuming that's US prices, you're talking 10-15 sets (based on converting to UK money). I'm still very new to RC, so I can't comment on this really other than it would change on how often you ran it ?

As you're talking about being competitive it seems, let's have a look at your other costs...
I don't think you can be very competitive and remove any of those...unless you borrow them from others. Also I forgot the cost and time of tire truing. How much does a tire truer run for?

A motor will not last that long before it needs work to stay competitive....or worse, be ruined. Ideally, it should be dissembled from the start and "blueprinted."

You need the correct one-way, or diff to be competitive on the track you race on....or you will get destroyed in the corners.

Some people use new tires every race...that gets expensive.

I don't want to get nitpicky about $15 dollars vs. $12 dollars for brushes. My point is that the maintenance cost and associated startup costs, to be competitive, are very high with TC.

The biggest point I'm trying to make is TC racing would greatly benefit with entry level, low maintenance classes. The cost would be best controlled by limiting the cost of the cars in the these classes.

I'm not saying to give up the regular classes. Leave those...but I suspect you will find these new classes take over in popularity.

P.S. You can't really include the cost of a TV when you look at video gaming. Almost everyone in the U.S. has one...in fact, they have more than one. Heck, most people in the U.S. already have gaming consoles too...more than one of those as well.

At least 95% of the time spent racing cars on a gaming console goes towards improving your skill....maybe 5% to learning setups. 0% is spent on maintaining the console.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:13 AM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_dono
Go Karts: I know a couple guys here in the UK who own and race karts. 5000-10000 for a season.
Depending on what level they get into, I'm not surprised. One thing nice around here is there are Go Kart tracks that you can walk up to, rent a car, and go racing. It is $20 bucks for a 6-10 minute race...$15 on Sundays. It is a blast.

It would be fantastic to see a similar thing at RC clubs. Walk on, rent a car and race. There will always be small differences in the cars so randomize the cars people get each race.

This would be more viable if the track owners had developed tracks that were kinder to the cars. The high cost of fixing all the stuff that breaks when the cars impact the walls, might make this too expensive to be offered at a price that is marketable.

I've toyed with the idea of making my own track (have done that at home) that would be designed to be kind to cars. Then, put together a series with tough cars (XRay M18's are pretty bulletproof) with low maintenance brushless motors, hard rubber tires and Lipos and run races.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:29 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
Just one quick issue..The TV can't be figured into the cost of playing video games since TVs have other uses...a comm lathe is a comm lathe...no other use. Same with the computer. Not that I'm being nit-picky but those are costs that people have for other reasons. Tires...no other use...motor...no other use...so on...
Ok, forget computers (bad example to start with)

look at something like Golf...(again, only got uk prices here)
Starting with "good" equipment (I'm not going to get into good vs bad equipment because my views on this are very different to most golfers)

Set: 500
Balls: 25 per dozen
Shoes: 135
Bag: 100
Glove: 15
Tees: 5

where are we at now... 800 ish ?

oh and you've not hit a golf ball at this stage.
round of golf 25 ish (can start at 5 but go well over 200 for each round)

oh and you don't have insurance in case you hit someone (50 per year), you're not a member of a club (add another 1500 per year)

RC still expensive ?
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:38 AM   #349
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Getting back to the subject, 5 cells, it was suggested or asked.....

"would it work in helping
bring new racers in & get to grips with RC cars
lower racing cost`s
bring more enjoyment..."

That suggests people realize their IS a problem, actually more than one, in 1/10th TC.

It suggests the problems are:

1. Not getting enough new drivers.
2. Racing cost is too high.
3. Racing is not fun enough.

I've tried to make the argument, in my posts, that going from 6 cells to 5 cells is not going to make enough of a difference. It is like a 800lb man giving up switching to diet soft drinks, while still eating a half gallon of ice cream.

It isn't going to attract new drivers because it isn't going to be reduce the entry cost...in fact, if you need to buy new 5 cells it will increase it. Also, new drivers do not want to go slower.

It will not make a big difference in racing cost. It may marginally reduce the motor and tire maintenance but only marginally.

It will not make racing more fun. Is going down the straights slower more fun???

We need to address the issues....Making 1/10th TC more attractive, more fun and less costly.

Tell me why a IFMAR/ROAR sanctioned, cost limited, racing class won't help. I'd love to hear feedback on that.


P.S. Ran into this comment by Joel Johnson from 2000 regarding tire cost.

"What do you think about using a spec tire at big races? in your mind, what would be a good spec tire for everyone?"

"Spec tires at big races are the way to go for sedan and off road racing. This will bring the cost down to the racer and really leave it up to car set up and driving. No idea on what a good spec tire should be but it should be specific to each track to ensure a consistent feel over many runs and good wear."

Joel Johnson retirement interview
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:43 AM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disaster
I don't think you can be very competitive and remove any of those...unless you borrow them from others. Also I forgot the cost and time of tire truing. How much does a tire truer run for?

A motor will not last that long before it needs work to stay competitive....or worse, be ruined. Ideally, it should be dissembled from the start and "blueprinted."
You don't "need" a comm lathe, you can get comms cut at your local hobby store.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Disaster
I don't want to get nitpicky about $15 dollars vs. $12 dollars for brushes. My point is that the maintenance cost and associated startup costs, to be competitive, are very high with TC.
It depends what you are comparing it to. We're talking hobbies/pastimes here, and i think you'll see the difference with something like golf (as i mentioned in my previous post) is negligible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disaster
P.S. You can't really include the cost of a TV when you look at video gaming. Almost everyone in the U.S. has one...in fact, they have more than one. Heck, most people in the U.S. already have gaming consoles too...more than one of those as well.

At least 95% of the time spent racing cars on a gaming console goes towards improving your skill....maybe 5% to learning setups. 0% is spent on maintaining the console.
In that case, you've just proved my point about your argument being one-sided, it's easy to show how expensive it is when you're comparing it to something that you only need to buy half the equipment for to get going.

If you want to do a comparison with something like videogaming (not really a good example in any case) then you need to go from NO equipment, looking at the cost to get up and running/be competitive.

Personally, I'm not worried in the slightest about being competitive at the moment, I've only just started. For me, it's going to be skill first, then equipment.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:45 AM   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_dono
Ok, forget computers (bad example to start with)

look at something like Golf...(again, only got uk prices here)
Yes, Golf is expensive....and time consuming. I know many people who don't golf specifically for those two reasons.

They do however bowl, play basketball, play tennis, softball...etc.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:45 AM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disaster
"What do you think about using a spec tire at big races? in your mind, what would be a good spec tire for everyone?"

"Spec tires at big races are the way to go for sedan and off road racing. This will bring the cost down to the racer and really leave it up to car set up and driving. No idea on what a good spec tire should be but it should be specific to each track to ensure a consistent feel over many runs and good wear."

Joel Johnson retirement interview
The BRCA are running a control tyre this year. 19.99 for a set of four, compared to 22-25 for a set
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:51 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by chris_dono
The BRCA are running a control tyre this year. 19.99 for a set of four, compared to 22-25 for a set
Is this the first year? How long did it take them to adopt that change from the time it was suggested?

Now add cost control to rest of car and we are getting there. We can shave some real weight off that 800lb guy.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:55 AM   #354
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I don't know if it's the first year, I've only been doing this a month or two
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Old 03-11-2007, 03:01 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by chris_dono
In that case, you've just proved my point about your argument being one-sided, it's easy to show how expensive it is when you're comparing it to something that you only need to buy half the equipment for to get going.

If you want to do a comparison with something like videogaming (not really a good example in any case) then you need to go from NO equipment, looking at the cost to get up and running/be competitive.
One sided? If you think that you are missing my point.

I am specifically addressing the cost of entering the sport.

If you already own something then there is no cost.

Almost everyone owns a TV. Most people don't own battery dischargers.

If you walk up to the average Joe and try to get him excited about RC racing vs. a new video racing game he isn't going to say...."but I'll have to buy a TV to play that game." He may say, "It isn't offered on my console and I'm not going to buy an XBox 360 for $300."

I think if we could address these three big ticket items we would have a more popular sport.

1. Cost of entry including car, accessories, chargers...etc.
2. Cost of maintenance, in both time and money.
3. Accessibility of tracks and racing venues.

I'd hope the last one would be fixed when the first two bring more riders into the sport making expansion more viable.
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Old 03-11-2007, 03:03 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by chris_dono
I don't know if it's the first year, I've only been doing this a month or two
Welcome aboard and good luck with your racing!
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Old 03-11-2007, 07:59 AM   #357
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In all brushless lipo has been a blessing to the hobby. Now we have a handle on a big hit on the cost in the long run, which will only help to keep current racers. Entry is getting better with ready to runs, and it wont be long brushless ready to runs are becoming the norm. Look at the Losi ready to run .
The manufacturers are doing there part my hats off, look at the latest release from Novaks motor line up, all the upgrades money can buy and a motor that will last a year or even longer. And 200.00 for a Cyclone? come on thats Lipo commitment to get the cost down. It will take the work of the facilities to generate racers. You can not put a price on having a good time or enjoying the company of your friends and child that you take racing. I would rather take my family racing than go to the cinema at times. Every person has a budget. If a person really wants to race they will find a way to budget it in, thats what run what you brung is all about. Brushless lipo is the end of the battery and motor fight thats over. Car cost is over. I believe with a entry level Ready to Run like Losis we are there. The rest is up to the facilities and the racers that race there.. The facility is where we have always needed to start. And thats where it will end. This is just a few points but a indoor facility needs indoor dirt and carpet. It needs a pool table or 2. And some arcade games. It needs a way to pay the bills aside from just racing. With low cost racing people will buy less and hurt the facilities. I could ramble all day about some sort of franchise race track and how to operate it.

RTR: Losi with all the good radio equip. 350.00
Lipo Batteries: 2 Orion 3200. 160.00
Charger: Duratrax ICE 125.00
Radio shack 13 amp power supply: 80.00
Tires are optional: 1 set 40.00 tops.
755.00. And I bet a sharper pencil can get it lower.

When I started 11 years ago it was 1000.00 and more, thats getting the cost down. My friends its where you race. And more importantly how you race.
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Old 03-11-2007, 01:16 PM   #358
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if you hit the wall its your own fault if you break it.maybe you need to slow down a bit so you dont hit it.

what about motorbike raceing real car racing fishing these are all expensive sports depending on what level you do it at.

like i said in a previous post you dont need top end gear to be copetitive look at the 12th scale world champion he had 1 charger old discharger and some tools nuff said
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Old 03-11-2007, 03:42 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_dono
The balancer didn't work then ?
got through charge balencer
get apic ltr on the li-po thread
but when connected & it starts charging the pack is around 8.3v & still taking 4.4a ,then the balencer cuts in & shut`s it off to say 'voltage error open circuit'

so i think i`ll give my plat a miss ,not taking any chances
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Old 03-11-2007, 04:02 PM   #360
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well it`s all ended
no more 5 cell
for it to work you must be around 1350g to make up for the lost 1.2v cell
i ran 1420g & as the tracks got bigger then you are losing upto 1 sec a lap against 6 cell

even if everyone ran 5cell 27t ,it drive people away just from the sheer boredom of plodding around with a 1420g 5cell car

first minute fine then it the voltage drops off to a mundane pace & no matter how you gear the 27t it just goes soft
unless you charge at ahigher amp to get the average voltage up

good things
no heat isue`s(batts or motors
less wear rate ,since you have much tidier racing lines
improves your driving skills (coz your going that much slower

bad things
boring racing
no top speed to put a bit of Zest into your racing

it will costa lot on money for racers to meet the 1350g weight
update car .Ti gear .smaller speedos & servo`s, flimsy shells

this was not intended to bring new racers in
we have those allready ,it`s keeping them in & having stability in our racing scene instead of having a fragmented racing scene we have now
so this proved a few things anyway

batts & motors do not get hotter then 6 cell

easier to drive & much better at picking your racing lines

it will make 27t/19t to slow to keep people intrested

really good on small tight tracks

really bad on big open tracks

cost racers to much money to meet the 1350g weight for it to be viable

good bye & good night
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