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Old 03-09-2007, 06:01 PM   #316
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Can someone answer this for me, what truely killed off 1/10 scale pan cars? From what I remember they were super fast, cheap to run and easy to control(just needed lightening fast reflexes, which to me is what touring car is turning into except the cheap part).
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Old 03-09-2007, 06:29 PM   #317
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your all going on about we need to do this need to do that for the newbie.we were all newbies once and i can remember when i first startted raceing i had a tamiya midnight pumpkin my freind had a lucnhbox all brought secound hand.we used to rag it up and down our road.we soon got boared of this and me my freind and my dad deciced to start a club.with great sucsess.we didnt have the best gear in the world we were happy just bashing around the track trying to improve from week to week.i now race at quite a high level and still enjoy it as much as i did when i had pumpkin.

so i dont think we need to slow cars down make new classes for newbies.just let them run what they have find there feet at a club get some advice and let them decide what they want to do.if they want to spend a load of money on a new chassis batterys etc let them who are we to stop them and decide what they do.most people i know that race are hooked on it and if a newbie comes in then they normally end up getting hooked themselfs.

maybe its us be a bit more freindly to newbies at your local club cos you never know when there going to beat you and you want there setups lol
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Old 03-09-2007, 06:39 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skiv
your all going on about we need to do this need to do that for the newbie.we were all newbies once and i can remember when i first startted raceing i had a tamiya midnight pumpkin my freind had a lucnhbox all brought secound hand.we used to rag it up and down our road.we soon got boared of this and me my freind and my dad deciced to start a club.with great sucsess.we didnt have the best gear in the world we were happy just bashing around the track trying to improve from week to week.i now race at quite a high level and still enjoy it as much as i did when i had pumpkin.

so i dont think we need to slow cars down make new classes for newbies.just let them run what they have find there feet at a club get some advice and let them decide what they want to do.if they want to spend a load of money on a new chassis batterys etc let them who are we to stop them and decide what they do.most people i know that race are hooked on it and if a newbie comes in then they normally end up getting hooked themselfs.

maybe its us be a bit more freindly to newbies at your local club cos you never know when there going to beat you and you want there setups lol
I like.
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Old 03-09-2007, 07:19 PM   #319
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.... the manufacturers are getting out of control with the prices of these vehicles. Like I mentioned a Nitro Touring car is way stronger and can handle WAY more HP without breaking as often and they run the same price as an electric touring car. It just does not add up when there is less in an electric touring car(material wise and parts and durability) than there is in a nitro touring car and their prices are pretty much the same(some electrics cost MORE than a NITRO CAR).
I think you have a couple factors at play here....the good old supply and demand.

The volume in the elite TC class is much less so the manufacturer has to amortize his tooling and R&D over a smaller number of kits.

The market is willing to pay more for the "best."

A small part of it is also the extra machinings you will find in a elite TC car, vs. your average Nitro.

This amortization issue could be greatly improved if the sport was more popular and more were sold.

The same is true with brushless vs. brushed motors. If you look at a typical brushless it doesn't cost much more than a brushed motor. But the volumes are smaller and hence the prices greater.

Eventually, when it hits brushed volumes, you will see brushed prices. Already you can find 200 can sized brushless motors that are perfectly good for 1/18th TC cars for the $30 price range. Likewise there are ESC's for them as low as $40.

TC could be cheaper....and it could do it with modern technology.

It just needs to be promoted correctly to increase the volume of sales.
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Old 03-09-2007, 07:25 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skiv
your all going on about we need to do this need to do that for the newbie.we were all newbies once and i can remember when i first startted raceing i had a tamiya midnight pumpkin my freind had a lucnhbox all brought secound hand.we used to rag it up and down our road..........i now race at quite a high level and still enjoy it as much as i did when i had pumpkin.
...and one of the reasons you got hooked was because it was fun and AFFORDABLE.

When a newbie comes to a track and looks at TC he is very likely to be overwhelmed by all the equipment and how much the people have spent.

Then he gets out on the track and gets his _ss whooped and beat around by impolite drivers and thinks...."This isn't any fun."

So it isn't much fun and it costs a lot.

We have to attack both of those things. Make it cheap and fun and when he is hooked then he can spend as much as he wants to race in the upper end "elite" classes.

If he gets tired of the money and getting beat in Elite he should have that nice inexpensive class to fall back on.
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Old 03-09-2007, 07:35 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by T. Thomas
Can someone answer this for me, what truely killed off 1/10 scale pan cars? From what I remember they were super fast, cheap to run and easy to control(just needed lightening fast reflexes, which to me is what touring car is turning into except the cheap part).
Good question and a valuable lesson to learn.

Some of the things I heard mentioned were:

1. All cars started looking alike with their CanAm type bodies.

2. 4WD TC was "easier" to race than RWD pan.

3. The dichotomy between the best and worst drivers had gotten too large to attract new drivers.

If this is partly true it might help point to some of the ills of TC.

1. Everyone using the same Mazda bodies....boring.

2. TC feels tougher...when you are passed left and right by experts.

3. The best guys are wayyyy better than the new guys.

So maybe we should look at addressing these. Here are some suggestions.

1. Limit on aerodynamics, so many body styles can compete.

2. Different classes for beginners and experts. Horsepower limits on beginner classes.

3. Someone suggested a handicapping system. That is worth investigating. He suggested we might give the expert a less powerful motor...using the ESC to control this. Also might look at starting the expert a lap or two down.

The idea, as was mentioned by many people is to make it fun and affordable.

Does anyone really think going to 5 cell packs is going to do much toward making TC more fun or affordable?
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Old 03-09-2007, 08:11 PM   #322
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Disaster:::: I believe there are spirited racers and free spirited racers.
The free spirited racer just wants to have fun racing (racing for the fun of just racing). Gets better and then becomes a spirited racer. (Racing for the win seriously). Now how would you suggest mixing the two? Its obvious that the manufacturers have been doing there part lately. We have a handle on the cost there are so many options out there that theres no reason not to race at any budget level. Now how do we recall the lost racers? I believe the rules are hurting the free spirited racer. But the rules are part of serious racing. Its like we're trying to make every club night a natl' event? Now I say to mix just run your own race and separate the racers by there skill level. I know this is just the icing but what do you think? I think club racing is should be about the thrill of just racing and not about the win, and thats the hard part to distinguish. I also think the basher mentality is a plus when it comes to that attitude.
As for the bodies, run what the heck body you want experience is the best teacher.
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Old 03-09-2007, 08:31 PM   #323
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I think what Mr. Jolly is trying to do is save as much brushed racing as he can.
I can respect what hes saying there are a lot of people that will pay the price.
I mean try to sell a dyno or a comm lathe or a sub-c charger, It may sit for a while?
If my pit table was covered with all that brushed stuff, Man I would have a hard time moving into the brushless lipo age to. And I could be off a little cause I don't know the UK. I sold all my stuff and gave away almost all my motors a year ago. The Men that have held out will pay the price. That is they will either have to just put it all on the shelf, or find a way to mix the classes. And I can see that the proper people are trying to find ways to keep it fair and mix the to.
I feel i should say some thing for Mr. Jollies thread because his thread has been for about three different things at once and he hasn't complained once. I know hes trying to make it cheaper and easier and he has tried above and beyond.
But I don't think it will help much on the new racer end of it. Anyhow good go Mr. Jolly. Hope it works out.
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Old 03-09-2007, 09:29 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UN4RACING
Disaster:::: I believe there are spirited racers and free spirited racers.
The free spirited racer just wants to have fun racing (racing for the fun of just racing). Gets better and then becomes a spirited racer. (Racing for the win seriously). Now how would you suggest mixing the two? Its obvious that the manufacturers have been doing there part lately. We have a handle on the cost there are so many options out there that theres no reason not to race at any budget level. Now how do we recall the lost racers? I believe the rules are hurting the free spirited racer. But the rules are part of serious racing. Its like we're trying to make every club night a natl' event? Now I say to mix just run your own race and separate the racers by there skill level. I know this is just the icing but what do you think? I think club racing is should be about the thrill of just racing and not about the win, and thats the hard part to distinguish. I also think the basher mentality is a plus when it comes to that attitude.
As for the bodies, run what the heck body you want experience is the best teacher.
I like your comparison of free spirited vs. spirited and yes, I agree that comes into play. Experience, fun and winning...or at least getting better, pull people from the free spirited to the spirited group. However, just because you are spirited and serious, doesn't mean you can afford to run with the other spirited riders with bottomless pockets.

So when you ask me how we combine the two I say we combine the serious and fun loving in the same class if they like it that way or separate them by skill if that works better. Or we should handicap the better drivers and run them in the same class if that works. It should be the choice of the riders.

However, we should not have guys with $200 cars and limited time to RC race, constantly pummeled by guys with $3000 cars, and unlimited time to tweak and tune their motors and batteries. We should have classes with maximum spending limits and if you go over you MUST move to the next higher class. Of course you can always race your cheap car in the more expensive class if you so desire.

Let me give you an example from another field...video gaming.

If you look at the computer gaming industry you will see that much of it is shrinking as the video gaming market is expanding. The video gaming market is taking customers away from the computer gaming market.

The cost and complexity of computer gaming is what I experienced and why I ultimately gave it up and believer many others have too.

When I would buy the latest game I found some piece of hardware lacking...usually needed a better video card. Sometimes it wasn't compatible at all. $300 later, after buying a new card and installing it I'd find my computer locked up on this application or that. I'd search the web for answers, install this driver or that, change the video card settings or perhaps replace another piece of hardware, like my audio card because that wasn't compatible with the new video card.

Finally, I'd be gaming. I was having fun...getting better and better. But, I'd find that I got "stuck" at a level. When I would investigate if it were me or something else I'd find that the other person had a faster video card, hence faster frame rate, (quicker reaction tiime) which gave him an advantage. I'd upgrade the card and go through that whole driver/conflict thing again....Or maybe I'd need a faster processor....Or maybe a faster internet connection to reduce lag time.

I would literally spend hours and hours of time and research and thousands of dollars of money to play a video game competitively. It was part of the fun...but it grew old as I realized it was taking time away from all the other things I really liked to do...like spend time with my family.

Then I tried the latest video consoles. Sure the graphics were a smidgen of a step down, but they were truly plug and play. I only had to buy a $300 console and a $50 game and I was off to the races. If I was losing I knew it was me and not that the guy I was playing had a better console. We all had the same thing.

I could be as competitive as I wanted, and better, spend all my time improving my skill instead of all my time researching computers. I could spend time with my family instead of holed up in the study digging through newsgroup articles on driver compatibility.

I don't play PC games much anymore and when I do I stick with older generation games where I know my hardware is as good as anyone elses. I don't upgrade to play games.

This same thing is being played out in TC.

It is cost of entry is soooo expensive and it is even more expensive to compete at the higher levels.

It would be so refreshing to go to the track an only worry about driving and setup and not worry about motors and batteries and $400 chassis modifications.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have those expensive classes of racing. In fact, I think they are good...they draw people in to see the best of the best and dream of what they might do someday.

However, in the meantime, there should be competitive classes at all levels of "spiritedness" that are affordable from both a cost and time standpoint.

If that doesn't happen the sport is doomed to keep shrinking till even the staunchest racers will look elsewhere.
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Old 03-09-2007, 09:45 PM   #325
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Disaster:
You are an enlightened person as a matter of fact we all are now. I myself after 11 years have gone brushless lipo and for all those obvious reasons. Great talking, keep the spirit.
Later.
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Old 03-09-2007, 09:53 PM   #326
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A little Marketing 101.

These are some steps to improve the popularity of the sport.

#1. Interview the guys in areas of RC that is growing the most. Interview the guys at the club levels. Hear what they like, and what they don't like. They ARE your customers. Do not focus on the fanatics. They will race no matter what. Sorry guys but you know you will. You need to focus on getting and keeping new customers.

#2. Benchmark other successful sports. Nascar, Basketball, Soccer (at gradeschool level) and see what they are doing to make it affordable, and fun. What are they doing to attract new customers.

#3. Work closer with the local clubs. Get their feedback. Make them part of the political organization. They are your dealers...they are the closest to your customers. They are your core.

#4. Collect money and put the money back into advertising and marketing. Give stuff away. Widen your scope of advertising...look into magazines outside the RC world to advertise in. Remember, you are trying to get new customers.

#5. Look for synergies with other sports and venues. Set up a track next to a local stock car track....next to a go kart track. Work with theatres to have racing events in their parking lots at the same time as major racing movies hit the theatre.

#6. Work with schools. Give away spec. cars and tracks to schools and help them set up racing. Mix it with math and science so it can be fun and educational.

Those are just a few things that come to mind. I'm sure you guys can brainstorm lots of other great ideas.

The bottom line is you need to focus on getting and retaining customers by making the sport fun and accessible.

Going from 6 to 5 batteries isn't going to cut it anymore than importing and rebranding Kias is going to save General Motors. It is too little, too late.

Last edited by Disaster; 03-09-2007 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 03-09-2007, 10:12 PM   #327
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Disaster:
You are an enlightened person as a matter of fact we all are now. I myself after 11 years have gone brushless lipo and for all those obvious reasons. Great talking, keep the spirit.
Later.
Thank you, UN4RACING...it helps to have an outside fresh eyes perspective. I expect I'll get the opposite reaction too...and somewhat deservedly so because I am guilty of a bit of thread hijacking.

I'm just a little frustrated because I really like RC and TC and want it to be more popular. I want to see my kids more involved in it. I want to see more local tracks.

Instead, it seems to be shrinking for as long as I can remember...at least as a competitive sport. Then I read this thread about how 5 batteries in TC will improve the sport and I'm truly dumbfounded...I gotta say something....and you see what happens next....
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Old 03-09-2007, 10:21 PM   #328
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Its a labor of love. I think that if you were to go the most successful facility and just ask what is your chemistry, they would probably help out and share some trade secrets. As long as it didn't directly compete. Enthusiasm is the only way to keep them coming. Keep it fun and interesting, give back to the community and the racers in your area. We did exhibitions at the local BMX track years ago when I did dirt and we did exhibitions at the library years ago. Those are great promotions and most racers are eager to volunteer for it as well. I just don't see it and I just don't do it anymore. I don't own a track. I like to say I lead by following. I'm always willing though. I feel if I were to start my own track I could do it but its a tough gig. Maybe some day. Stuff like this sure does help at the track when the questions come up. Hopefully some track owners will get some good ideas from these posts. It takes action, initiative, excretion, and most of all time. If the racers are willing to help thats even more of a chance for success. Like I always say beginning is the hardest part get past that and its even more fun.
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Old 03-09-2007, 10:31 PM   #329
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Its a labor of love. I think that if you were to go the most successful facility and just ask what is your chemistry, they would probably help out and share some trade secrets. As long as it didn't directly compete. Enthusiasm is the only way to keep them coming. Keep it fun and interesting, give back to the community and the racers in your area. We did exhibitions at the local BMX track years ago when I did dirt and we did exhibitions at the library years ago. Those are great promotions and most racers are eager to volunteer for it as well. I just don't see it and I just don't do it anymore. I don't own a track. I like to say I lead by following. I'm always willing though. I feel if I were to start my own track I could do it but its a tough gig. Maybe some day. Stuff like this sure does help at the track when the questions come up. Hopefully some track owners will get some good ideas from these posts. It takes action, initiative, excretion, and most of all time. If the racers are willing to help thats even more of a chance for success. Like I always say beginning is the hardest part get past that and its even more fun.
Sounds like you did your part when you could. That is great.

...and you know another great saying.

Love your work and work at what you love. It is infectious.

After 25 years of working in an industry for other people (where I learned about customer research, marketing) I'm going off to start my own business.

Maybe a track IS in your future.
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Old 03-09-2007, 10:37 PM   #330
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Thank you, UN4RACING...it helps to have an outside fresh eyes perspective. I expect I'll get the opposite reaction too...and somewhat deservedly so because I am guilty of a bit of thread hijacking.

I'm just a little frustrated because I really like RC and TC and want it to be more popular. I want to see my kids more involved in it. I want to see more local tracks.

Instead, it seems to be shrinking for as long as I can remember...at least as a competitive sport. Then I read this thread about how 5 batteries in TC will improve the sport and I'm truly dumbfounded...I gotta say something....and you see what happens next....
Well I tell you what. If your trying to do the right thing you may not always be right, you just have to correct the wrongs as you go. You have to be able to except negative and positive responses to make those differences.
Negativity is the only way to better your self or your problem at hand its the only way to get to the heart of the problem in order to fix it. When negative becomes positive your on the right track. If you want to make some one your sole purpose(new racers) you have to be willing to except negative input to better cater to that market. In other words we are debating its how we determine whats best for us all and we can agree to a solution to a topic.
An argument ends back to back and we all lose. A debate ends face to face and we all win. Posts like this will help us all to better define our positions and our aditudes torwards the future of our hobby. I embrace negativity its the best way to better my self in this kind of topic. You have good down to the point positive comments that get to the heart of a matter.
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