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Old 03-08-2007, 07:55 PM   #301
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I don't know how other tracks are dealing with the Tamiya Minis, but at our track we work hard to ensure this is a fun class, and not all about competition.

We've got an unwritten, but often spoken, rule that you MUST bump a car as you pass. Clean passes are not acceptable! We do qualify using IFMAR, but we do a heads-up start. We love the pileups in the first corner! We've also allowed a lot of flexibility in our rules. Silver can motors, Traxxas Stingers, 1500mah $10 NiCd stick packs or 3300mah NiMh, we don't care. We do have a racer with us who has been EXTREMELY competitive at the Tamiya TCS races, but he slows himself down and plays right along with us. At our track, it is absolutely NOT about racing, it's about having fun, and that is why this class has been successful.
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Old 03-08-2007, 08:14 PM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
I don't know how other tracks are dealing with the Tamiya Minis, but at our track we work hard to ensure this is a fun class, and not all about competition.

We've got an unwritten, but often spoken, rule that you MUST bump a car as you pass. Clean passes are not acceptable! We do qualify using IFMAR, but we do a heads-up start. We love the pileups in the first corner! We've also allowed a lot of flexibility in our rules. Silver can motors, Traxxas Stingers, 1500mah $10 NiCd stick packs or 3300mah NiMh, we don't care. We do have a racer with us who has been EXTREMELY competitive at the Tamiya TCS races, but he slows himself down and plays right along with us. At our track, it is absolutely NOT about racing, it's about having fun, and that is why this class has been successful.
Sounds great! Thats what club racing is really about. Save the serious stuff for the big races. That sounds like a great way to attract new racers, with a fun class. Another thing I heard to be fun with minis in a ten minute race, is to yellow flag them and let them all bunch back up in single file. And turn them loose again. They did that in a recent Omaha race. I heard it was a blast.
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Old 03-08-2007, 08:18 PM   #303
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Anyone that thinks cost is NOT a big factor in the demise of the 1/10th TC class, at the local level, should spend some time reading the RECOIL thread.

RECOIL THREAD

Here are some quotes to chew on.

"For the money this car is a great buy and if Horizon supports it properly this car could be huge!"

"They will take the same kind of electronics that we are running in the other micro's! Anything that would be good to run in a Vendetta would be great in these too. That means, very high performance at a much lower cost than the 1/10 stuff that goes into a 1/12."

"Most 1/12 racing is pretty battery intensive and to be competitive, one must buy from the top of the heap in matched packs. A good 6 cell 2/3 A pack is $20, and you only need a couple."

"It sounds like a great "newbie racer" kind of vehicle at a price point that is attractive. And if it handles as well out of the box as it's cousin the Carisma it will be popular.

I ran a 99 dollar 1/14th Carisma at Duneland's track and it handled great, had good speed and handling box stock. I race Xray for 10th scale. I don't make the A main race in 10th scale but I have a blast just racing. The 1/14th scale gave me the same kind of feeling and it's WAY cheaper. It's the same feeling I have when on the same night as stock rubber 10th scale sedan we also run Tamiya Mini Coopers using TCS rules. the Mini is just plain simple fun.

I think anything that gets new people into racing is to be commended and encouraged. Especially if it's kids."

"All in all, I highly recommend the Recoil; for $170 you will be getting an excellent product that is raceworthy out of the box!"

"Even compairing matched packs, a 6 cell 2/3A pack goes for around $30. Can't touch a competetive 4cell 1/12 pack for that.
The brushless 1/18 systems are more than enough for the Recoil. The ones I suggested are the ones that work in the Vendetta and Mini Quake, which are larger/and have more torque. Such as the GH Airpower. So basically 300 to 400 size bl motors. Cost on most of those motors is less than a Mamba anyway. Any of the brushless escs we now use in 1/18, will be fine (especially the Quark33)."

"At $169.95 it is the most impressive package so-far in the micro scene....I think it is going to be a big hit!"

"...for ~$170 you definitely get your money's worth."

"I think box stock will make a great class addition...Personally for 170 bucks, I want to leave it as is and race others who leave their's stock so it's racer's skill not how much money is thrown at it that wins."

"...and a 10th scale TC is too big (and expensive)...Id also like to make it a brushless class. NOOO more micro motor maintainence...anyone who has raced micros knows what a pain in the ass it is to deal with brushed micro motors."

"...I think the car is going to be a hit lots of people at the track were interested and some talk about using it for a spec class"

"I just hope I dont kill the class before its born by throwing a brushless setup in it. Mind you Im NOT interested in BL for insane speed, I wouldnt mind atall if it wasnt much faster than stock. I only want it so that I dont have to work on motors."

"...it is priced low enough and the rtr equipment is not to crappy, so it doesn't hurt the budget to bad..."

"...So I put an ElectraFly outrunner in. It bolts up without mods, to the motor plate.....If someone was interested in a spec brushless class, the 2cell LiPo or 6 cell NiMh with this motor, would be a very nice class. The motor is made well, inexpensive, drops right in...."

"...Personally Im just getting back into the hobby and Im trying to keep things both economical and casual."

"....the potential that this car has to become the premier fast and fun spec class our hobby needs."

"...6 cell 2/3A pack (Integy Intellect 1400's are only twenty bucks)"

"One of the customers at StrictlyRC, Boss Hoss, recalled a blast from his past that I thought might be fun....A class of racing where the cars are owned by the hobbyshop and racers are assigned a car by picking straws....With a Carisma, using 4 cars, a hobbyshop could do it for about 300 bucks. And the cars take a heck of a beating, and you know guys will be knocking each other around just because the cars don't break easily."

"I'm with Kev...Box stock racing Recoils!!"

"The motors we are running now are; CIS14174 (Carisma r380 racing motor) with EFLM1910 adapter ring (makes for an effortless installation). Motors are $12.95 and the adapter is $2.99."

"...was very pleased with it for the price."

"I would think this will be a great stock race car...keep the cost low, and allow radio upgrade only....it should be fun to run."

"I have no interest in turning this into an overpriced mod class...but I refuse to deal with brushed mirco motors, just to much of a hassle. Im dropping a mild brushless motor in it as soon as I get one."
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Old 03-08-2007, 09:12 PM   #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disaster
Anyone that thinks cost is NOT a big factor in the demise of the 1/10th TC class, at the local level, should spend some time reading the RECOIL thread.

RECOIL THREAD

Here are some quotes to chew on.

"For the money this car is a great buy and if Horizon supports it properly this car could be huge!"

"They will take the same kind of electronics that we are running in the other micro's! Anything that would be good to run in a Vendetta would be great in these too. That means, very high performance at a much lower cost than the 1/10 stuff that goes into a 1/12."

"Most 1/12 racing is pretty battery intensive and to be competitive, one must buy from the top of the heap in matched packs. A good 6 cell 2/3 A pack is $20, and you only need a couple."

"It sounds like a great "newbie racer" kind of vehicle at a price point that is attractive. And if it handles as well out of the box as it's cousin the Carisma it will be popular.

I ran a 99 dollar 1/14th Carisma at Duneland's track and it handled great, had good speed and handling box stock. I race Xray for 10th scale. I don't make the A main race in 10th scale but I have a blast just racing. The 1/14th scale gave me the same kind of feeling and it's WAY cheaper. It's the same feeling I have when on the same night as stock rubber 10th scale sedan we also run Tamiya Mini Coopers using TCS rules. the Mini is just plain simple fun.

I think anything that gets new people into racing is to be commended and encouraged. Especially if it's kids."

"All in all, I highly recommend the Recoil; for $170 you will be getting an excellent product that is raceworthy out of the box!"

"Even compairing matched packs, a 6 cell 2/3A pack goes for around $30. Can't touch a competetive 4cell 1/12 pack for that.
The brushless 1/18 systems are more than enough for the Recoil. The ones I suggested are the ones that work in the Vendetta and Mini Quake, which are larger/and have more torque. Such as the GH Airpower. So basically 300 to 400 size bl motors. Cost on most of those motors is less than a Mamba anyway. Any of the brushless escs we now use in 1/18, will be fine (especially the Quark33)."

"At $169.95 it is the most impressive package so-far in the micro scene....I think it is going to be a big hit!"

"...for ~$170 you definitely get your money's worth."

"I think box stock will make a great class addition...Personally for 170 bucks, I want to leave it as is and race others who leave their's stock so it's racer's skill not how much money is thrown at it that wins."

"...and a 10th scale TC is too big (and expensive)...Id also like to make it a brushless class. NOOO more micro motor maintainence...anyone who has raced micros knows what a pain in the ass it is to deal with brushed micro motors."

"...I think the car is going to be a hit lots of people at the track were interested and some talk about using it for a spec class"

"I just hope I dont kill the class before its born by throwing a brushless setup in it. Mind you Im NOT interested in BL for insane speed, I wouldnt mind atall if it wasnt much faster than stock. I only want it so that I dont have to work on motors."

"...it is priced low enough and the rtr equipment is not to crappy, so it doesn't hurt the budget to bad..."

"...So I put an ElectraFly outrunner in. It bolts up without mods, to the motor plate.....If someone was interested in a spec brushless class, the 2cell LiPo or 6 cell NiMh with this motor, would be a very nice class. The motor is made well, inexpensive, drops right in...."

"...Personally Im just getting back into the hobby and Im trying to keep things both economical and casual."

"....the potential that this car has to become the premier fast and fun spec class our hobby needs."

"...6 cell 2/3A pack (Integy Intellect 1400's are only twenty bucks)"

"One of the customers at StrictlyRC, Boss Hoss, recalled a blast from his past that I thought might be fun....A class of racing where the cars are owned by the hobbyshop and racers are assigned a car by picking straws....With a Carisma, using 4 cars, a hobbyshop could do it for about 300 bucks. And the cars take a heck of a beating, and you know guys will be knocking each other around just because the cars don't break easily."

"I'm with Kev...Box stock racing Recoils!!"

"The motors we are running now are; CIS14174 (Carisma r380 racing motor) with EFLM1910 adapter ring (makes for an effortless installation). Motors are $12.95 and the adapter is $2.99."

"...was very pleased with it for the price."

"I would think this will be a great stock race car...keep the cost low, and allow radio upgrade only....it should be fun to run."

"I have no interest in turning this into an overpriced mod class...but I refuse to deal with brushed mirco motors, just to much of a hassle. Im dropping a mild brushless motor in it as soon as I get one."
Trinity tried that with the Trinity T-Spec car. True, all I heard was the car wasn't great but all it really takes would be a good entry level class that's about FUN and not competition. TCs seem to be all about who has the best blah blah... whether they actually win or not. To many Silverbacks just beating their chests rather than fun racing. That and price are what's hurting the hobby...not cell count.
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Old 03-08-2007, 11:39 PM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
sorry

obsolete tech will never improve our racing....


old tech
is expensive
and
more complicated

not all that "slower" either...
So that would be those guys above having huge fun with all those lo-tech $20 NiMh packs, then, and those lo-tech obsolete sensorless brushless motors, and those obsolete 2C LiPo packs. You're talking rubbish.

3300 is a capacity, not a technology. Go ahead and spend your $$$ on all this hi-tech stuff, but you may yet end up racing these guys after TC eats itself. Remember, those you p**s off on the way up, you pass on the way down!!
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Old 03-09-2007, 12:53 AM   #306
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MORE FACTS & FIGURES
thursday eve rubber/carpet 27t
tried 6.33/6.1/6.58.....6.3 & 6.5 are best for co27t

done 23 242.. 10.21 fastest lap put me 6 th in A final

batts went out @107f ,came back after race 94-96 range
only take 1500mah to top again ,less then 6 cell which takes about 2000mah out
motor @6.1 came off hot
so back to 6.36/6.58 motor was now 97f instead of other racers in my heat coming off @ 125+f running 6 cell

stuff gets hotter running 5 celll ???????Naahhhhhhhhhhhhhh (not in my car)

got the big race tonight
get ready to rumble....................(racing cars)

there`s no way i`m getting rid of my 1/10th scale car ,thye have been thisd size for donkey years
as for them to `BIG` more like to fast


@cherry
got that arse about face
new tech is more complicated

old tech
simple ( that because we know how to use it & proven

newbies & youngster like it simple , as they race more then they go complicated

just remember guys
when i was racing off-raod over 18 years ago
50 for batts , 50 for motors ,all this stuff still cost`s the same ,if not better value now
funny the motor brush`s are the same price now (ish) as they were then ,but racers are more educated about tuning motors & brush`s that work

i used have LRP pink `E` & Black `DOT` they are like the price as we have now
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Old 03-09-2007, 05:36 AM   #307
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Also something to think about, back when Touring Cars were introduced by Tamiya, it was intended to be a low cost racing on any type surface(prepared or not prepared surfaces). Look at what it is now, one of the most expensive classes in RC racing. The chassis are close to the same cost as a Nitro touring car(which are way way stronger). To set a limit on chassis is far worse, the new racers start off in that class and they do well, then after 3-6 months they want to GO faster and in order to compete they must buy all new equipment yet again. How is that good for the hobby may I ask?
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Old 03-09-2007, 06:15 AM   #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
Also something to think about, back when Touring Cars were introduced by Tamiya, it was intended to be a low cost racing on any type surface(prepared or not prepared surfaces). Look at what it is now, one of the most expensive classes in RC racing. The chassis are close to the same cost as a Nitro touring car(which are way way stronger). To set a limit on chassis is far worse, the new racers start off in that class and they do well, then after 3-6 months they want to GO faster and in order to compete they must buy all new equipment yet again. How is that good for the hobby may I ask?
You don't set a limit on chassis...you have specific classes designed for fun racing and those classes would have limits but the normal TC classes would still be there for people to move to later. You have to get people hooked on the FUN and as they get better, THEN they move on to compete with the fast cars. Much of the investment in chargers and batteries (plus radio/receiver) are already out of the way if you still use LiPo in the fun classes (which we do in Mini) so then people will have time to decide on chassis, motor and ESC. Then, if they decide that the investment in that isn't worth it...you still have them racing in the FUN class.
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Old 03-09-2007, 06:51 AM   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
...You have to get people hooked on the FUN and as they get better, THEN they move on to compete with the fast cars. Much of the investment in chargers and batteries (plus radio/receiver) are already out of the way if you still use LiPo in the fun classes (which we do in Mini) so then people will have time to decide on chassis, motor and ESC. Then, if they decide that the investment in that isn't worth it...you still have them racing in the FUN class.
You have got it right about getting people hooked on fun. Part of the hook has to be affordability.

I don't have any problem with TC being the "premium" class of RC. But there has to be a affordable ladder to the premium in the class.

Right now, the lower classes are more about going slow then saving money and getting new drivers in. New drivers don't want to go slower. They want to trial the sport less expensively.

There should be at least 3 classes of races...possibly 4.

1. The low budget RTR/Stock class. You should be able to race this class for $250 dollars.

2. The modified, build your own chassis class. You should be able to race this class for $600.

3. The Premium/Manufacturer class. Money is no object. Go nuts spend as much money as you like.

4. The Manufacturer race series. This is where the top factory racers bring out their exclusive prototype weapons to battle each other.

With a structure like that you have a sport that will draw people in, give them a path to follow upward, and something to salivate at.

America is "car country." People love cars...driving, racing, watching racing. There are small race tracks all across the U.S.

RC should be bigger here. It should be HUGE. We need to take a good hard look at the sport to find out why it isn't.

Right now I can take my boys to the go kart track. Sit in a real vehicle and race around a mile and a half track for $20 bucks a pop. Sounds expensive but it is cheaper than TC! That is a crying shame.

All of this talk about 5 batteries is a smoke screen that is obscuring the real problem. When you introduce 5 batteries you just introduce more complexity and expense. Now racers will have to buy 5 cell packs to go with their 6 cell packs. What do you want to bet, matched 5 cell packs will cost as much...or nearly as much as 6 cell packs? Tire expense, motor expense...the same.

Think quantum leap here guys...not bandaid.
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Old 03-09-2007, 07:15 AM   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
So that would be those guys above having huge fun with all those lo-tech $20 NiMh packs, then, and those lo-tech obsolete sensorless brushless motors, and those obsolete 2C LiPo packs. You're talking rubbish.

3300 is a capacity, not a technology. Go ahead and spend your $$$ on all this hi-tech stuff, but you may yet end up racing these guys after TC eats itself. Remember, those you p**s off on the way up, you pass on the way down!!
Apologies if I interpret incorrectly but I think his point, which I agree with, is don't limit the technology to save cost. This artificial method usually ends up not working because people spend huge amounts of time and money developing the best product that fits within that older spec. So you end up with $70 optimized 3300 packs when you could be racing faster and longer with $50 Lipos.

The sport needs to put a outright limit on the cost...and let the best technology win. Sure, there needs to be some specifications and classes to differentiate between sizes and weights, but every specification needs to be thoroughly looked at to determine if it is the best for the racer...or if there is another way to achieve the same thing.

For example, as was mentioned if it is determined that it would be helpful to have a slower class why not do it with ESC's that limit the power. With the new electronic, programmable ESC's this would not be very difficult. You may find this works better than a battery or motor specification because once people are limited to a motor they will be inclined to spend as much as it takes to get the best motor in that class. All the sudden you end up with $100 27T "stock" motors with crazy oxygen free connectors and hand winding. Better to say put any $50 dollar motor you want in there....but it will be limited by the power of the ESC.

This simplifies the approval process for the committees. Ask the manufacturer, "What is the sale price?" If it is under $50 it is approved for that class; if it is over...sorry. Now the governing bodies can spend more time on what really matters...promoting the sport.

If there were some old schoolers that still wanted to race brushed motors have a brushed motor class just for them....but you'd have to have the supply (of racers wanting to race brushed) to make the class work.
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Old 03-09-2007, 08:59 AM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
MORE FACTS & FIGURES


@cherry
got that arse about face
new tech is more complicated

old tech
simple ( that because we know how to use it & prove

You tell that to the Newbee...


At your local race facility.

A beginner shop`s for a brand new R/c ...


You show him a brush motor, you explain he will also need to purchase brush`s at $15 a pop, a lathe and learn how to tune a brush motor ...


Then show um a brushless which needs none of that...


after that.....

Show him a $50 Nk-Ml pack that needs a charger, dis charger and battery conditioner for max performance and life...

Then show um a Li-Po which only needs one battery charger, that all...


Go ahead tell um ....
They will easily decide which one is simple, easier......

You ?
Will never sell um the story you trying to sell here....


As far as proven ?

I`m been racing sense they invented dirt, and I know which one is more reliable...

and

that beginner?

I`ll tell um just that !
Brushless and Li-Po is way more reliable, because its true....
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Old 03-09-2007, 09:09 AM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
So that would be those guys above having huge fun with all those lo-tech $20 NiMh packs, then, and those lo-tech obsolete sensorless brushless motors, and those obsolete 2C LiPo packs. You're talking rubbish.

3300 is a capacity, not a technology. Go ahead and spend your $$$ on all this hi-tech stuff, but you may yet end up racing these guys after TC eats itself. Remember, those you p**s off on the way up, you pass on the way down!!

I`m not talking rubiest ..
Go ahead !
You sell that $20 battery pack to someone !

and

After they get blasted off the tarmac from another racer with $75 matched pack`s, how much fun its is to be beat....

O-looky now !

Who`s gonna be piss on now ?
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Old 03-09-2007, 09:32 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
You tell that to the Newbee...

At your local race facility.

A beginner shop`s for a brand new R/c ...
You show him a brush motor, you explain he will also need to purchase brush`s at $15 a pop, a lathe and learn how to tune a brush motor ...
Then show um a brushless which needs none of that...
after that.....
Show him a $50 Nk-Ml pack that needs a charger, dis charger and battery conditioner for max performance and life...
Then show um a Li-Po which only needs one battery charger, that all...
Go ahead tell um ....
They will easily decide which one is simple, easier......
You ?
Will never sell um the story you trying to sell here....
As far as proven ?
I`m been racing sense they invented dirt, and I know which one is more reliable...
and
that beginner?
I`ll tell um just that !
Brushless and Li-Po is way more reliable, because its true....
That's what i mean, I'm just starting out, but i looked at NimH and chargers/dischargers/balancing trays and the like, then i looked at lipo...
it was a no brainer.

the motors thing though, I'm kinda interested in that and have been reading up on it, although I've not got a lathe or anything yet.
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Old 03-09-2007, 10:09 AM   #314
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brush`s 15 a pop !!!!!!!!!!!
thats like 7.50 a pair are you sure

like they are only at worst 3.00pr = $6.00 over here
are they made of gold over there, are you buying from the proper place ???

anyway it proberly work for the usa
but over here every meet /club or sereis is oganised via the BRCA org
so getting lipo/brushless to run every where is a long way off


last night
thursday eve club night down maritime
racing from 7pm-11pm 9 heats in all ,all 27t class/mimh batts 98 drivers raced that eve
55-60 driver is every week
so if we need brushless/lipo to get/keep beginneers in (the one`s down there last night have not been reading the script ,coz they are happy to do brushed/Mimh (at the mo)

orion/trakpower li-po`s are picking up slowley ,but not in sanctioned events & most clubs still don`t allow them

maybe next year

story !!!
more like a Epic yarn
also my story does have FACTS to back it up though and more importantly cost`s no money to do for racers ,
your way will cost loads

your way lipo/brushles will make this hobby more `Elitest` as not every one can afford 250.00 for a brushless let alone 350. for a car

anyway we are splitting hairs here
as my 'story' is to bring all 3 class`s together with out hurting any racers ,just so ther eis stability & direction

BUT
if the mod class this year gets going (5cell/mod) and they have `big` issue`s with the batts ,than back to the drawing board


like i have said before on this thread
there are plenty of beginneers coming into 1/10th TC
it`s the `keeping` them in the hobby that`s proving tricky
it`s not money either ,some thing else bringing out to many batts & making harder to keep Healthy by having to buy all the battery care crap that`s going around (lipo is good here )
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Old 03-09-2007, 05:59 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
You don't set a limit on chassis...you have specific classes designed for fun racing and those classes would have limits but the normal TC classes would still be there for people to move to later. You have to get people hooked on the FUN and as they get better, THEN they move on to compete with the fast cars. Much of the investment in chargers and batteries (plus radio/receiver) are already out of the way if you still use LiPo in the fun classes (which we do in Mini) so then people will have time to decide on chassis, motor and ESC. Then, if they decide that the investment in that isn't worth it...you still have them racing in the FUN class.
I agree with you, but take the current crop of touring cars and their entry level counterparts. Who is going to spend $400+ on a chassis to see whether or not they will like it. That same guy decids to buy the entry level kits at $200ish(Andy more edition cyclone is roughly $450ish where the plastic cyclone is roughly $160ish for example). Ok, the new guy gets the less expensive car, and decidess he likes it but wants to run in the regular stock class or maybe mod(quick learner). Now he has to buy the more competative vehicle and his other one is not worth anything because it is not a competative car. That was all was trying to get at. I understand not setting a limit on the chassis, but the manufacturers are getting out of control with the pices of these vehicles. Like I mentioned a Nitro Touring car is way stronger and can handle WAY more HP without breaking as often and they run the same price as an electric touring car. It just does not add up when there is less in an electric touring car(material wise and parts and durability) than there is in a nitro touring car and their prices are pretty much the same(some electrics cost MORE than a NITRO CAR).
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