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Old 03-07-2007, 10:25 PM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
Would you guys get off the crap that going to 5 cells will force people to get BETTER batteries than they have now?!? Every hardcore racer I know ALREADY gets the best batteries he (or she) can afford. Adjusting the number of cells will never change this fact. The battery war never ended, it just changed when we went to these newer high capacity cells. The old war was on runtime, now the war is with voltage. But, the prices we are paying for cells has never been cheaper.

And, we know that most of the people that visit these forums don't want to slow down. So, if we do move to a lower voltage battery, move up a class and get your speed back! Plus... we've been seeing results from several people that show that lap times DECREASE with less voltage. So, it looks like the old adage taught in all forms of racing is holding true... you have to slow down to go fast!

So, think about the long term health of the hobby and what it will take to get new racers and keep old ones. Our hobby has been shrinking for quite some time. Too many tracks have closed and hobby shops are going out of business. SOMETHING needs to change, and the change we need isn't an increase in speed.
AND making TCs farther apart from other forms of electric R/C isn't going to help. Going to 5-cell makes TCs the ONLY form of electric racing using that. Won't use 5-cell off-road...everyone else is using 6...CAN'T use them in one of the fastest growing classes in the U.S. Tamiya Mini...won't fit. There is no benefit to the hobby as a whole when you can just as easily go to Silvercan Johnson or Mabuchi motors to create a slower class for people to learn. The benefit is largely to the Mod racer. I don't see people blowing up motors or ESCs in Stock or 19T...only Mod. Besides..needing 3 battery packs that each cost $50 ($150 total) isn't much better then needing 3 $60 ($180) packs. Now, needing only 1 $80 pack on the other hand...hmmm...Vive' LIPO.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:36 PM   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
Would you guys get off the crap that going to 5 cells will force people to get BETTER batteries than they have now?!? Every hardcore racer I know ALREADY gets the best batteries he (or she) can afford. Adjusting the number of cells will never change this fact. The battery war never ended, it just changed when we went to these newer high capacity cells. The old war was on runtime, now the war is with voltage. But, the prices we are paying for cells has never been cheaper.

And, we know that most of the people that visit these forums don't want to slow down. So, if we do move to a lower voltage battery, move up a class and get your speed back! Plus... we've been seeing results from several people that show that lap times DECREASE with less voltage. So, it looks like the old adage taught in all forms of racing is holding true... you have to slow down to go fast!

So, think about the long term health of the hobby and what it will take to get new racers and keep old ones. Our hobby has been shrinking for quite some time. Too many tracks have closed and hobby shops are going out of business. SOMETHING needs to change, and the change we need isn't an increase in speed.
The change needed is`nt 5 cells ...

Better battery`s will come and go ...


For now all that is needed is to legalize Li-Po...
and

When a even better cell tech comes along we should naturally switch to that tech, just like we have all these year`s....

SanYo 2000...

Gp 3300...

IB 3800...

IB 4200...

Orion 3200 Carbon....

In the next few years
Even newer , better cell tech than Li-po will be available !


Why stop how we have always chosen battery packs in the past ?


Going to 5 cells will not be in the best interest towards racing and

staying with Nk Ml 5cell will only will keep the costs very high with all the associated equipment needed to maintain them and there short life span....




Li-Po at least offers the consumer a easier and less expensive way to race R/c just like the brushless has....


And that means more new racer`s !
Yeah !
Their
the

bread and butter for the R/c racing community !
and

They are the ones we need !


"slower"

will never attract

near as many to our sport,
as "easier" and less "expensive" .....
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:48 PM   #273
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Changes to capacity are not changes to technology - it's still a bunch of plates with chemicals in between. LiPo is also a bunch of plates with a chemical in between. What you're seeing is a change to exploitation of the same technology - a bunch of different plates with a different chemical in between.

LiPo is simple now because no one really uses them. If you legalise them, you will march down the same selection/matching/cycling road we have now, and the prices will go up. Like anything made, they will go off, and they will require regular replacement - just look at the battery in your mobile (cell) 'phone, which lasts 12-15 months at best with its original performance, in regular use, and that's with low currents and charge rates!

There's a reason LiPo isn't going to take over - just ask yourself why you can only buy them from fringe suppliers to RC, and only one main RC supplier? When you have that answer, you'll know why they won't be adopted for RC on a wide scale.
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Old 03-08-2007, 12:52 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DA_cookie_monst
If I get the chance, I will give it a pop, but I am not convinced at all, and to be honest, even if it did work, I still wouldn't run it, I race to go fast, and I go as fast as the track allows, simple as.

At a guess, those who are skimming, buying new tyres etc, they would still do it in 5cell, so no change there, plus gearing would need to be more 'precise' too.
when you have a go DA
get it down to 1400g or as close you can
run 2-3 teeth bigger on pinion (48)
IE;me with 6 cell co27t will go out on like 7.3-7.4
5cell-co27t 6.2-6.4 same track ,same venue
good luck & don`t crash every where

5 cell in buggy is not my idea ,just TC`s
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Old 03-08-2007, 03:48 AM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
The change needed is`nt 5 cells ...
........
Li-Po at least offers the consumer a easier and less expensive way to race R/c just like the brushless has....

And that means more new racer`s !
Yeah !
Their
the

bread and butter for the R/c racing community !
and

They are the ones we need !

"slower"

will never attract

near as many to our sport,
as "easier" and less "expensive" .....
Amen brother.

Had an epiphany of sorts. Here is my proposal.

Limit hardware by retail cost.

This could theoretically drive down cost to end consumer as competitors offer more value in each class.

Economy class. Value class. Premium class. Manufacturer class.

No racer could own a product that another can't own for the same price except for the Manufacturer class. Price is based on Mfgr's recommended retail price....not best deal.

Economy/stock class: RTR for $250. Everything stock including radio. Brushless comes when it is installed in RTRs. Rubber stock tires. All wear items replaced with stock....including sealed can motors.

Value class: Chassis and all hardware for $400. Motor for $50. ESC for $150. Battery for $50. Rubber tires for $50. Radio for $180.

Premium class: Chassis and all hardware for $800. Motor for $100. ESC for $300. Battery for $100. Radio for $280.

Manufacturer class: No limits. Ultimate R&D class for factory racers.

This will bring way more riders into sport than all this silly battery, motor limiting stuff....and create more equity.

Possibly min. and max. weight limits for each class to keep similar weight cars on the track....maybe 1500-1600g for stock. 1400-1500g for value...etc.

The dollar figures and amount of classes are just a "strawman" for discussion.

Imagine how more "cost friendly" this will be for the racer. Novak wants to introduce some new fangled ESC. They can first introduce it into MFG class for their team to show it off. Then, the premium class...then it will work it's way down.... Racing WILL become more affordable which, in turn, WILL bring more people into the sport.

It will scare the manufacturers at first. But, in the longer run they will see more money from more riders.

You will get push back from people who have already spent a ton of money on equipment. Maybe leave their classes open for a short while. Soon, so many people will be racing in the new classes, and it will be so inexpensive for them to join...they will be won over.

Another advantage of this proposal is that it puts the technology issue to bed once and for all. It allows ROAR and the other bodies to focus on the marketing and "customer" side of the sport...to spend more time sponsoring and promoting. To study and propose new races and classes (1/36 anyone?) instead of focus on the minutia of motor design. New technology would come to a class when the manufacturer offers it at a price that is legal in the class and it is available to everyone.

It will help manufacturers too....more than just getting more customers. They can now focus on improving the technology and manufacturing cost, and less on designing their products, or redesigning their products to "fit" a class.

Last edited by Disaster; 03-08-2007 at 05:21 AM.
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Old 03-08-2007, 04:13 AM   #276
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All this technology and choice, then we realise we have spoilt r/c with it, so it seems...

imho there are too many varibles in what gives power to make things any fairer.

IMHO (which probably counts for f**k all lol) when we had less power back in the sanyo days and fixed endbells, cars were a lot easier to control and as a result the tc population was much bigger than today, (judging by club level anyway).

club level isnt "club level" now as we have too much power and a lot of newbies walk away when they see their car isnt up to speed, or when they see a retail price of top cells go for 60 etc etc.

Also, Are 19t and 27t motors the correct way of grouping BRCA motor classes? how about a 540 class for the newcomer with a 3300mah limit? With a list of clubs that support it?

Anyone can look at the brca website and see where clubs are, but it doesnt say what motor classes they race.

If we cared that much about the newcomers into this hobby there would be a seperate place for them to start out.

Then let them race in this class for a maximum of 2 years in it, but can move up to 27t and back to 540 at any time if they want to.

Maybe someone can step in and think about this a little. We shouldnt just be thinking about the experienced racers out there. Everyone benefits if there are more people racing.


Or, if you really wanted to make things fair, vote in at the AGM that we only have one motor manufacturer and 2 versions of motor for each motor class.

One for rpm, one for torque.

Then once all the tuning secrets are out for them we can all live happily ever after knowing we all race the same motor (sarcastic comment)

"the sea is as long as it is wide" so the saying goes.


Call me blunt, but sometimes you have to be. Look at the big picture.
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Old 03-08-2007, 04:21 AM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
Changes to capacity are not changes to technology..........

LiPo is simple now because no one really uses them. If you legalise them, you will march down the same selection/matching/cycling road we have now, and the prices will go up. Like anything made, they will go off, and they will require regular replacement - just look at the battery in your mobile (cell) 'phone, which lasts 12-15 months at best with its original performance, in regular use, and that's with low currents and charge rates!

There's a reason LiPo isn't going to take over - just ask yourself why you can only buy them from fringe suppliers to RC, and only one main RC supplier? When you have that answer, you'll know why they won't be adopted for RC on a wide scale.
First, some would argue quantum leaps in existing technology....from way back in the days of 600mAh NiCds to 4600mAh NiMhs, IS a change in technology. But that is semantics.

Second, there is next to no difference in voltage from the good products to the best. The beauty of Lipo is it provides a very flat voltage curve (flat?) over its capacity. Once you have "enough" power, there really isn't any advantage to be had with spending more money matching. Cells literally can be .01 volt apart with a good battery (not an insanely expensive battery) and be returned to that balance with a balancer that costs all of $40.

It is the future. The sport and industry need to embrace it.
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Old 03-08-2007, 04:28 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc3team
All this technology and choice, then we realise we have spoilt r/c with it, so it seems...

.........club level isnt "club level" now as we have too much power and a lot of newbies walk away when they see their car isnt up to speed, or when they see a retail price of top cells go for 60 etc etc...........
Exactly, and why ROAR should seriously look at dollar limits on classes. Newbies feel they can't compete unless they spend tons of money and tons of time and they just don't have enough of either. The entry curve is too steep.

There needs to be an inexpensive entry point that does not involve $80 matched battery packs and shaved disposable tires.

Similarly, there needs to be faster classes that people can graduate too that don't involve the same crazy costs and mortgaging your house and spending hours and hours on tuning. Better if the time was spent on the track learning how to drive.

This will also bring more money to the track operators...making it more likely we'd get more and or better tracks.
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Old 03-08-2007, 04:45 AM   #279
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The fact of the matter is, although some clubs will race a beginner class there is no structure in the BRCA rules to accomodate them in an acceptable way.

Being in the uk, I know very little about ROAR ruling. But it sounds like it could be suffering from the same problem.
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Old 03-08-2007, 05:12 AM   #280
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Another comment relative to cost limiting classes.

I think cost is one of the big drivers in new little classes (grass roots racing classes, if you will) springing up...like the recent interest in the Recoil. It is affordable. But, eventually this is followed by the death spiral of the class as people figure out expensive hardware to optimize their cars and it becomes more and more expensive.

It happens over and over.

Micro-RS4 is fun and inexpensive. Then there are special $120 dollar chassis's for better handling. Then special split battery packs you need to fab yourself to fit on these new wider chassis's. Then modded chassis's that can take 540 motors. Special drivetrains to handle all the power...suspension components. Next thing you know you feel you need a $4000 RC to compete.

Mini-Z started out as the next great stock class but has gotten crazy with special fabbed components, motors, imported rare tires...etc.

All of this is daunting to the newcomer...and overwhelmingly expensive and offputting to the veterans.

It can sneak up on you but eventually, the typical person will look elsewhere. Maybe it is to the next new class, but unfortunately, a lot of times it is elsewhere outside the sport.

Sports, like Basketball, realized they had to limit team's salaries lest the high salaries drive all other costs up, and ultimately to the consumer...the ticket purchaser...the TV viewer...who was being driven away. This also created more equity amongst the teams which fostered more exciting competition.

It is time the RC sport embraced the same kind of consumer consciousness.
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Old 03-08-2007, 05:29 AM   #281
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The slower you make a class naturally it will get faster, but if you are new to the hobby and want a league to start in, a touring car with a 540 and 3300 cells should make it fast enough to enjoy, but also slow enough to control.

A lot of premade 3300 cells are available thesedays, if the original heatshrink or sticker saying they are 3300 is still intact they are ok for use.

As for the 540 motor, yes there are good ones and bad ones (and ones with built in fans which shouldnt be included,neither should being allowed to take them apart) but even one thats been tuned is wasted if you crash, as beginners and experts do!
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Old 03-08-2007, 05:33 AM   #282
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1. If when you first started racing there had only been lipos and brushless how much money would you have saved between then and now?
How much motor maintainace time?

2. Any major rule change and transition will be problematic. If you assume their will be a major change in the direction of lipos and brushless in the next several years why put every one through two major changes by first transtioning to 5 cells.

I think the real answer is, the most desierable result could come from Brushless ESC technology. The following two things can be built into a standard racing Brushless ESC. A voltage regulator set at some predetermined value like 7.2 volts.

And a 3 or 4 way switch or alpha numerical display on the esc which sets the a ESC to a spec profile for example novice, stock, 19, mod. If you are worried about variations in different manufactures motors you could have profile 1a for novak and 1b for castle etc, the key would be that every motor esc combo with the same numerical setting, would have the exactly the same power curve, torque and RPM. Two addtional advantages you could switch classes by simply flipping a switch. Also, since the esc could be designed with not just 4 but 50 different profiles, if you wanted you could easily do some form of handicaping; for example, if everyone in mod class ran profile 40 in the first heat, the winner might have to turn his esc down to 37, 2nd place 38, 3rd place 39 6-10 turn theres up to 41 for the next heat.
The digital nature of brushless and the fact that lipos hold there peak voltage introduces the possibility of true spec classes.
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Old 03-08-2007, 05:35 AM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
Changes to capacity are not changes to technology - it's still a bunch of plates with chemicals in between. LiPo is also a bunch of plates with a chemical in between. What you're seeing is a change to exploitation of the same technology - a bunch of different plates with a different chemical in between.

LiPo is simple now because no one really uses them. If you legalise them, you will march down the same selection/matching/cycling road we have now, and the prices will go up. Like anything made, they will go off, and they will require regular replacement - just look at the battery in your mobile (cell) 'phone, which lasts 12-15 months at best with its original performance, in regular use, and that's with low currents and charge rates!

There's a reason LiPo isn't going to take over - just ask yourself why you can only buy them from fringe suppliers to RC, and only one main RC supplier? When you have that answer, you'll know why they won't be adopted for RC on a wide scale.
from what I've read about them, they don't need cycling in fact that's a BAD thing to do (kills the cells as they're not supposed to go below 3v per cell)
Phone batteries are Li-Ion which is different...

1 lipo @ 4900 + 1 charger cost me 90ish
or i would have had to buy 3x nimh @ 4200 + charger = 200 + easily
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Old 03-08-2007, 05:40 AM   #284
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On a roll here...probably should...will start a new thread entitled "improving the popularity of RC's and RC racing" or something of that nature.

A couple more thoughts.

With the cost based categories there would still need to be some definition of "classes" other than cost to, at very least, define between 1/10th and 1/18th. Size and weight would definitely be two factors.

Some other interesting ones might be "throttle" or "horsepower" limits which could be programmed into the new electronic ESC's by limiting the maximum wattage delivered. Sure some motors would be more efficient...but this would still create an upper limit of power. This might allow "learner" classes or might separate the people that just want to go "ball to the wall"...crashing over and over, from those that want to go slower and concentrate on their racing lines.

Another restriction might be body limits on minimum down and dragforce. Imagine a limit such that you could race many different body styles. The limits would be set high enough to allow lots of variety.

The generic looking bodies is hurting many motor sports...not just RC.

Imagine if you could see body forms that looked like a real Caddilac CTS, or Dodge Charger that were competitive with each other. They would be tweaked to reach the allowable limit...but still could look very different from one another.

This would be more exciting than seeing 30 Mazdas racing around the track together.
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Old 03-08-2007, 06:00 AM   #285
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Before we digress, the National racing bodies are only there to offer an umbrella organisation and create guidelines for clubs to operate within if they so wish.

What people GOT to realise, it isn't UP to the BRCA/ROAR what classes and what motors as a club, you run, or even how long a race is. So there is nowt stopping clubs making a limited cost class or beginners class, there is nothing stopping clubs going 4/5/6/7 cell, in the end, the EB homologation lists are there for BRCA sanctioned bodies and a help to clubs to organise racing.
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