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Old 02-28-2007, 06:40 PM   #136
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Adrian, I am a member of ROAR, and they must be reading these posts if the 4-cell idea is history. I want to go to 4 cells to lower costs and lower the speeds for the beginning drivers. Going to 5 cells isn't really going to do much.

I have yet to see anyone but Rick and yourself post any ideas to continue the growth of R/C. How about someone maybe the President of ROAR start posting and suggesting new ways to keep people interested in racing. It is time for the racers to vote on what they want.

I finally tried brushless and see that it is everything people have said it was. I am going to try 5 cell this weekend and like I said before I will probably go faster. I might even throw in a 4 cell and see if it is too slow.

Eventually, brushless and LIPO will take over hopefully it isn't too late.
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:00 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
The problem is that Novak got the brushless started in TC and set a standard and every other company that's following...is coming up with their own standards. Novak brought out the 4300, but the Mamba Max is a 4600 and the Reedy Neo Stars are labeled in turns but none of those are equivalent to the 10.5 turns on the Novak..etc..etc. Basically everyone is refusing to fall into line. If you make the rules based on current Novak standards then everyone else will have to fall in line to get into that market. Novak has more brushless choices and a good standard that has been adopted all over the country at many racetracks...even the Snowbirds had Novak 4300 classes. I'm not saying they deserve a monopoly but if there is specific classes set with specific turns or kv ratings and they are based on what Novak has already created..then so be it. Time to get all these companies on the same page.
The problem is Novak decided to push a size, and standard of brushless that was quite "unstandard." I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but I'm suspect it was to use their ROAR influence to give themselves some exclusivity.

Brushless motors, in airplanes and boats, have been out, and are very popular...way before Novak "introduced" them to ROAR. In fact, they were introduced into land sports by hobbiests who starting out with boat and plane controllers and motors. There was plenty of history with 6, 7, 8, 9...even 12 turn motors in a variety of lengths and amperage capabilities. The Novak, half sizes (10.5, 13.5..etc), and sensored models, are way less common amongst the rest of the industry. Feigao motors, for example, are some of the most popular in retrofitting monster trucks to brushless. Mamba, from Castle Creations, is much more of a pioneer than Novak...and better candidates for leading, IMHO.

I don't have any problem with Novak introducing another choice. I do have a problem with that, rather limited choice, being forwarded as the "standard."
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Old 02-28-2007, 07:22 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Disaster
I don't have any problem with Novak introducing another choice. I do have a problem with that, rather limited choice, being forwarded as the "standard."
It seems perhaps we've touched on the next great "battle" in brushless acceptance. If we're going to define a BL Stock and BL Spec Mod class, a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere, and we have to set a definitive standard on all aspects of motor design. It's critical that this standard be restrictive enough that all motors are essentially created equal, much like the rules we have in place for brushed motors now. I realize that only works in theory, but it's the best we can hope to do, adjusting and making little tweaks to the rules as we go along.

So, on the one hand, you don't want to reward a single company like Novak and name them the standard, as that's unfair to all the other companies, and as you mentioned, there's the possibility they used some underhanded tactics to gain the position they're in. On the other hand, they've contributed a LOT to the success of brushless in our segment, and have a lot of people using their motors because, by and large, they work great. Plus, at some point you're going to HAVE to decide on a baseline when creating the rules, and you're going to want at least one motor to fall within it so there's something to use while other companies decide if they want to play that game or not. So, while we may not want to reward Novak, we may not have a choice, since you're going to be forced to pick a standard at some point, and they're currently the most logical option due to widespread use in racing.
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Old 02-28-2007, 09:39 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
It seems perhaps we've touched on the next great "battle" in brushless acceptance. If we're going to define a BL Stock and BL Spec Mod class, a line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere, and we have to set a definitive standard on all aspects of motor design. It's critical that this standard be restrictive enough that all motors are essentially created equal, much like the rules we have in place for brushed motors now. I realize that only works in theory, but it's the best we can hope to do, adjusting and making little tweaks to the rules as we go along.

So, on the one hand, you don't want to reward a single company like Novak and name them the standard, as that's unfair to all the other companies, and as you mentioned, there's the possibility they used some underhanded tactics to gain the position they're in. On the other hand, they've contributed a LOT to the success of brushless in our segment, and have a lot of people using their motors because, by and large, they work great. Plus, at some point you're going to HAVE to decide on a baseline when creating the rules, and you're going to want at least one motor to fall within it so there's something to use while other companies decide if they want to play that game or not. So, while we may not want to reward Novak, we may not have a choice, since you're going to be forced to pick a standard at some point, and they're currently the most logical option due to widespread use in racing.
Good points.

I wonder if we have a chicken vs. egg thing going on. Is it possible, that Novak is the most popular for racing because it is ROAR approved?

If you look at 1/18th scale racing it is a whole different animal. Mamba is, by far, the most popular. Quark has a pretty good following too. The older "classic" brands, Trinity and Tekin, are just getting established.

The MambaMax, likewise has a huge following...including racers where it is allowed....especially for trucks and buggies. Has ROAR considered a Mamba approved motor and class. What about Feigao...a huge brushless motor supplier....very popular and affordable.

I agree there will have to be a stock standard...but I'm curious how this will be done in such a way as to invite many manufacturers to the game. Will there be sensorless and sensored versions of a stock motor. Will there be a can size limit, a turn limit, a magnet limit? Like you mentioned, there are a lot of ways to get more power out of a motor.

Even today, "stock" motors aren't equal. If that was the case everyone would just buy the cheapest.

I don't have any answers, but my concern is keeping it as "open" and affordable as possible. This is our best chance to get more people into the sport.

Would an outright performance measure of an engine be a better way to go? Max. torque? Max. power? You see this in some areas of motorsports.

I don't have an answer...just throwing out some ideas for discussion.
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Old 03-01-2007, 04:46 AM   #140
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Just out of interest, has anyone seen what the difference is in running 4 cell 27t to 6 cell 19t?

Probably a no brainer, but hey if you geared the hell out of 4 cell 27t to get speed you might start seeing the cells tail off at the end of a run so gearing could win a race, not outright performance.

Not fast enough? Go 6 cell 19t....
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Old 03-03-2007, 05:08 AM   #141
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got 2 race meetings in 27t/5cell
sunday i am doing 19t/5cell

very intresting
got results to prove aswell
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Old 03-03-2007, 06:13 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
After talking to the guys at LRP and Novak I get the impression that they do not 100% understand what going on in thier own motors. The problem is that Novak and LRP are thinking in terms of inside out brushed motors and not all the rules that apply to BR motors apply to BL motors.

For example:

Winds are a great way to describe the power out put of a BR motors. Such is not the case in BL motors.

A 4.5 with a large diameter magnet can out out more power than a 4.5 with a small diameter magnet (less driveable but more power none the less).

A 7.5T delta terminated motor is faster than a 4.5T Wye terminated motor

A 13.5 with big wire and a minimalist stator (no rules against this) can be made to put out as much power as a 4.5.

What about slotless motors like the Mamba Maxx and most other motors other than the Novak, LRP and GM units?

FYI, ROAR knows about this and this is why there are no ROAR BL Stock or Spec Mod classes right now. I guess they do know what they are doing sometimes

BL motors are like the wild west right now. The cream has not risen to the top yet but they are out there anyways.

I suggest sticking to the ROAR rules (with some improvments to the rules) for 13.5 and 10.5 classes and allowing Mod to run whatever fits in a 36mm x 54mm box
For once i agree with you. I'm thinking if we stick to a single cell count classes should be in order of power output. For example stock class to have a max power output of 100W, super stock 200W and then a no limit class.
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Old 03-04-2007, 03:24 PM   #143
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so how did it go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
got 2 race meetings in 27t/5cell
sunday i am doing 19t/5cell

very intresting
got results to prove aswell
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Old 03-05-2007, 03:06 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyl03
so how did it go?
Im interested too, if it can help any of us learn something from it then bring it on
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:33 AM   #145
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I was racing with Mr Jolly on Sunday. I was running 19t 6 cell and I TQ'ed just 4 seconds ahead of him! Admittedly, he is a much better driver than I am and there was nothing between us on the infield, if anything, he was able to keep better lines and his speed up even more because of the lower weight. I definately had the advantage of a little extra punch and over a 30 mtr straight, I had about 2 metres on him. His motor came off barely warm! It must also be said he used only 1 pack of cells all day (3 rounds, 1 final) and yet still had pretty good performance levels.

I was very impressed to say the least.
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Old 03-05-2007, 04:38 AM   #146
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Oh, forgot to mention we both were a lap up on the fastest stock guys (who are very fast and experienced drivers!) so 19t 5 cell is definately still faster than 27t 6 cell.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:50 AM   #147
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think Uk racing scene should go over to 5 cell 27t/19t
simple as that same as mod ,weight to be the same on all 3 class`s 1400g is what I want
speed freaks you still have speed
No money freaks ,lot less heat & wear on motor`s & battts ,less load on drive train ,use less energy with 5 cell then in 6 cell (no waste )
Less tyre wear

No cooling equipment wanted (no need)

cost no money to convert

beginers all sorted ,6 cell sticks run silver can 540 (next test that is for me )

i have FACTS & FIGURES now
as i run this setup in the flesh in front of other racers ,the arguments stop
which is nice

Next 3 things for me
1) run silver 540 6/cell for stick pack users
2) beat a fast 6cell/27t racer on friday with my 5 cell/27t & win 5.00
3) try & make the B or A @c/wars in 27t on a biggish track ,with Ians permission (one last time ian)

My fko4 runs @1411g .raced up

figures will be ltr (school run now ) bye
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:14 AM   #148
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Interesting findings, I must admit this cooling lark is getting a little way OTT thesedays, I didnt run a fan on my car on 6cell 19t checkpoint at my last race, motor performed fine all day on hard brushes. Skiv was using the same motor afaik.

Come summer though and we could all see things differently though, with 5 or 6 cells

540,6 cell sounds fine to me
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:31 AM   #149
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http://www.maritimeracing.co.uk/ HEAT 3 ,CAR 6 GOT IN THE B FINAL
last thursday eve
maritime
track;;carpet/vtech 24rs
5 cell IB 4200/co27t geared @ 6.3 & 6.5 ( 6cell it would be 7.2-7.4 )
car;;FK04
weight;;1411g

PS;;side note only used 1 pack on 5 cells , just repeaked after every run
reason;if it didn`t work then i haven`t wasted time messing around with battery`s

this club runs the same track layout for about 5-6 weeks
1st week 6cell,co27t 7.2 1515g
lap Time fastest lap
1st 5 40 Colin Witt 23 250.43 10.25
2ND week 5cell/co27t @6.3 1411g
result was 23 23 248.076 10.22


after each run battery took just 1500mah to peak off ,done this 4 times on the trot
also didn`t change the car setup from 1st week to 2nd week
same oils,same springs ,same tyre`s (well old aswell)
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:37 AM   #150
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friday eve
brentwood ,Essex
track/carpet
foam racing , But i used my vtechs rubbers
Co27t untouched from thursday @ Maritime
same brush`s ,same springs ,same car setup again 1411gs
gearing .6 cell same motor 7.4-7.6, 5 cell 6.3-6.5

got a easy heat to run around with 2-3 of us racing they had Foams

Q 4th In A 30 lapper ,Tq man had a 31 lapper (just) 10 sec laps

again i pack of IB`s same as thursday
same amount of mah in 1500mah (ish)
no heat problems of nothing

motor felt the same heat as when you have it on a motor checker @3v for like 3 mins
very easily keep your fingers on motor can no probs
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