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Old 02-18-2007, 01:48 PM   #1
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Default fantom dyno.

hi guys
how many kind fantom made? or is the fantom fact is just the only one..

also whats the latest or the last software they had made?

and lst thing is this still worth buying? for 300$ thats only my budget....
and i know someone selling one so i was just trying to know if its still good to buy one..

thanx in advance for who ever will help out.
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Old 02-18-2007, 05:36 PM   #2
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:21 AM   #3
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i think he's asking about the 'facts machine' dyno, not the lathe.

the last forum thread i recall reading on the facts machine was not very flattering. basically i believe the issues had to do with the voltage not being adjustable (except as a 'calculated' value) and that flywheel dynos, in general, were not as accurate as load dynos (something i dispute, but don't care to here).

regarding their lathe, it is a thing of beauty. had it for a few years now and it is just a great piece of machine work.
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Old 02-21-2007, 12:18 AM   #4
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There are a few different versions of the Fantom Facts Machine dyno, but as far as I have seen, they are functionally identical. (I had one of the oldest models, and I now have a brand new one).

The main drawback in my opinion is that the machine is hard-wired to run at 5.0v. This can be changed if you alter the circuitry, but the software that comes with the dyno is calibrated to calculate efficiency at 5.0v so it will throw it off.

It's a pretty good "middle of the road" solution if you are interested in motor tuning. It's a lot cheaper than getting a load dyno, and way more accurate than just using a no-load motor checker for tuning purposes. It's also still in production and readily available, which is also a huge bonus.

We use a heavily modified one (with custom software) in our shop for doing final graphing and plotting on our production runs, and it has been pretty stable and consistent. I find that the CE TurboDyno is a bit more versatile for rapid iteration and tuning, but they are also pretty hard to get these days.

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Old 02-21-2007, 01:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyT
We use a heavily modified one (with custom software) in our shop
T
Can you send me a PM with what you modified and customized? Thanks!

Or, post here for others to read...
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Old 02-21-2007, 09:20 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkas10
Can you send me a PM with what you modified and customized? Thanks!

Or, post here for others to read...
Sure thing - Unfortunately, I can't get into the exact details of how to do this stuff too much. In my opinion, these mods make the dyno a much more valid diagnostic machine:

5.0v / 7.0v Switch - Added ability to drive motors at 7V. Some theorists will argue that this is not necessary because electric motor performance has a fairly linear relationship to voltage but I found this was very important on my CE TurboDyno, so I added the functionality.

Software Calibration - The Fantom dyno has been accused of being "inaccurate" in the past. In reality, the dyno itself is pretty accurate at measuring the RPM and amp draw of the motor, but the interpretation of the data is subject to how the software wants to smooth it out and plot it and so forth. I calibrated my profiles against a Robitronic dyno to ensure validity against another standard. It still reads lower wattage compared to a load dyno but that it more because the mechanism is totally different. My plotting software also does minimal curve smoothing and adjustment so the plotted data looks closer to what came off the dyno. Not as pretty, but theoretically more accurate.

External Driver Mode - This is still a work in progress, but I am adding the ability to run the dyno in more of a slave mode where an external ESC is used to drive the motor being tested, and the software automatically responds when data arrives. The idea here is to be able to test brushless systems where the controller is an integral part of the equation.

That's about it - the system as it comes from Fantom is very usable for basic motor tuning. For my production environment, I needed to run at 7v and be able to customize the output and printing a good deal for my packaging, so I took on the extra projects to really tweak it for what I am doing here.


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Old 02-21-2007, 10:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jinkasama
hi guys
how many kind fantom made? or is the fantom fact is just the only one..

also whats the latest or the last software they had made?

and lst thing is this still worth buying? for 300$ thats only my budget....
and i know someone selling one so i was just trying to know if its still good to buy one..

thanx in advance for who ever will help out.
I once asked Fantom about this as well - they are all the same machine, first coming out in plain alum color, then blue, then red, but all the same product but for color. All the color can tell you is the relative age of the dyno.

I don't believe the software has been updated in ages - the latest version is at www.deccosoftware.com. Last update I believe was going from DOS based to Windows based many years ago - it still runs fine on Windows XP. Most computers now don't have a serial port, but it functions fine with a serial to USB adapter such as made by Belkin. (And if you are a Mac fan, yes, it is possible to run it on the newest Intel based Macs under OS X using a Parallels virtual windows machine and a Belkin serial to USB adapter) (I'm a new Apple convert).

As far as buying one, I like mine, still gives good info, and you don't have to worry about any variation in results due to the condition of your slave motor - the flywheel dyno's have no slave motor.
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Old 02-22-2007, 10:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyT
Sure thing - Unfortunately, I can't get into the exact details of how to do this stuff too much. In my opinion, these mods make the dyno a much more valid diagnostic machine:

5.0v / 7.0v Switch - Added ability to drive motors at 7V. Some theorists will argue that this is not necessary because electric motor performance has a fairly linear relationship to voltage but I found this was very important on my CE TurboDyno, so I added the functionality.

Software Calibration - The Fantom dyno has been accused of being "inaccurate" in the past. In reality, the dyno itself is pretty accurate at measuring the RPM and amp draw of the motor, but the interpretation of the data is subject to how the software wants to smooth it out and plot it and so forth. I calibrated my profiles against a Robitronic dyno to ensure validity against another standard. It still reads lower wattage compared to a load dyno but that it more because the mechanism is totally different. My plotting software also does minimal curve smoothing and adjustment so the plotted data looks closer to what came off the dyno. Not as pretty, but theoretically more accurate.

External Driver Mode - This is still a work in progress, but I am adding the ability to run the dyno in more of a slave mode where an external ESC is used to drive the motor being tested, and the software automatically responds when data arrives. The idea here is to be able to test brushless systems where the controller is an integral part of the equation.

That's about it - the system as it comes from Fantom is very usable for basic motor tuning. For my production environment, I needed to run at 7v and be able to customize the output and printing a good deal for my packaging, so I took on the extra projects to really tweak it for what I am doing here.


T
T,
Thanks for the info. Did you have Wizard do the modificatrions to the dyno? What about the software upgrades/calibration? Is this something you did for your shop, or is this something available to the public (or at least motor geeks - ME!)

I would love to talk about how you read the data to make decisions about motor performance. Obviously, the front screen numbers are easy to look at but don't tell the entire story. Also the graph with the 4 curves is good to look at, but again doesn't tell the whole story imho. I look at the time based data most of the time to see how quickly a motor spools up to close to max RPM,. what it is doing for torque and power at select amp draws, etc...

Anyway, I neglect my cars in order to play with motors...

my fiddlestick is molded in my hand. Other people tell me I am taking this kind of thing too seriously to just slap a purple and red spring on. I don't beleive that all purple and red springs are the same, and I know that not all motors run their best with the same springs...

I ramble. Sorry

Thank you for the information,
Jeremy
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Old 02-23-2007, 11:02 AM   #9
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Wizard would be the best bet if they are willing to do the modifications for you. I can see some concern over running the dyno at the higher voltage in terms of wear and tear on the MOSFETS, so I don't know where they will be at with doing the mods, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. I wouldn't recommend any experimental home repairs unless you know what you are looking at in there - a 5v dyno is way more useful than a fried 7v one.

The software upgrades and calibration are pretty much proprietary at this point. I guess it could be packaged up for sale, but it was written without Fantom's support/input, so I don't know if there would be any big problems with that or not. It wasn't something that I had originally envisioned for the software although it is pretty robust.

As for the tuning questions - there are obviously a large variety of opinions on this, but I would say that I think you are basically on the right track. The graphs are a really nice summary, but the interesting stuff is often in the time based views. Time to maximum RPM, and time to maximum power are interesting, as well as where the power peak lands in the RPM range.

With springs and so forth, you may find that the peak power and RPM aren't too much different between some of the combinations, but you may find that where the peak power occurs in the RPM range varies. This is where it gets a bit more interesting.

Torque and power at selected amp ranges is another good one. This is where the CE TurboDyno really shines because you can preset those ranges and it stabilizes the drive motor at each of the amp draw (or torque) presets and takes a pretty consistent read. I do most of this type of tuning on the TurboDyno as opposed to the flywheel dyno, but it's still interesting to see what happens on the flywheel as well.

You're also right about not all motors running the same with the same springs - for stock and 19T, we're talking about machine-wound comms. It's a complete wildcard in the equation as well as the manufacturing tolerance on the cans, magnets, etc. It's a bell curve type distribution of performance based on the characteristics of the raw materials alone. The "genetics" of the motors are often the key determinant in performance - sometimes there's nothing you can do to make a motor fast.

I could ramble about this for days too....
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Old 02-24-2007, 10:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDaddyT
Wizard would be the best bet if they are willing to do the modifications for you. I can see some concern over running the dyno at the higher voltage in terms of wear and tear on the MOSFETS, so I don't know where they will be at with doing the mods, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. I wouldn't recommend any experimental home repairs unless you know what you are looking at in there - a 5v dyno is way more useful than a fried 7v one.

The software upgrades and calibration are pretty much proprietary at this point. I guess it could be packaged up for sale, but it was written without Fantom's support/input, so I don't know if there would be any big problems with that or not. It wasn't something that I had originally envisioned for the software although it is pretty robust.

As for the tuning questions - there are obviously a large variety of opinions on this, but I would say that I think you are basically on the right track. The graphs are a really nice summary, but the interesting stuff is often in the time based views. Time to maximum RPM, and time to maximum power are interesting, as well as where the power peak lands in the RPM range.

With springs and so forth, you may find that the peak power and RPM aren't too much different between some of the combinations, but you may find that where the peak power occurs in the RPM range varies. This is where it gets a bit more interesting.

Torque and power at selected amp ranges is another good one. This is where the CE TurboDyno really shines because you can preset those ranges and it stabilizes the drive motor at each of the amp draw (or torque) presets and takes a pretty consistent read. I do most of this type of tuning on the TurboDyno as opposed to the flywheel dyno, but it's still interesting to see what happens on the flywheel as well.

You're also right about not all motors running the same with the same springs - for stock and 19T, we're talking about machine-wound comms. It's a complete wildcard in the equation as well as the manufacturing tolerance on the cans, magnets, etc. It's a bell curve type distribution of performance based on the characteristics of the raw materials alone. The "genetics" of the motors are often the key determinant in performance - sometimes there's nothing you can do to make a motor fast.

I could ramble about this for days too....
Don't worry about the mosfets. Just put in some that can handle the load. If they fail - they're easy and inexpensive to replace.

I for one would be interested in your software, nomatter the state of stability or installability. The windows sfotware from decco is a real turn off.
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Old 02-24-2007, 11:54 PM   #11
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I would also be interested in talking more about your software. And - don't laugh - what are mosfets???
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Old 02-25-2007, 01:37 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkas10
I would also be interested in talking more about your software. And - don't laugh - what are mosfets???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosfets

Better explanation than I can write here!

//Kaare
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Old 02-25-2007, 03:10 AM   #13
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im interested in the software also . looking for an alternative.... pm me with price info.. thanks
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Old 02-25-2007, 08:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kfa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosfets

Better explanation than I can write here!

//Kaare
Ah, yes; your were referring to those mosfets - well of course... Everyone knows what those are and has a complete understanding of what they are used for

Thanks Kaare, I will leave the mosfets alone and let someone else fix mine if ever need be.

Jeremy
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Old 02-27-2007, 07:00 PM   #15
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Sorry for letting the thread go cold guys... got a bit distracted with the weekend and racing and all.

I'm not totally opposed to the idea of releasing the software, or a variant of it I guess.

What features would you want? (without going too crazy - there are some very real constraints on time and so forth with my tuning business, so the simpler, the better)

Right now, the software is set up mostly for doing final runs and plotting a few different graphs that I use in my packaging in addition to storing databases of all of the runs and so forth.

The obvious to me seems to be sets of comparison tools - compare motors at different amp draws, torque, etc.

Any other ideas?

T
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