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Old 02-28-2007, 10:20 AM   #16
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Very cool, I'm extremely interested in trying out the 13.5 and 10.5 to see how they compare to the Novak versions. Do they ship with sintered rotors? They're sensored, right? Are the plugs the type that work with the Novak/LRP ESC's? If the plugs are removable at both ends, offering wires in varying lengths would be really cool. A lot of people are put off by the long sensor harness on Novak motors that can't easily be shortened.

Are you guys allowed to speak about the ESC, and what went awry, or why the project was shelved? :-(
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Old 02-28-2007, 10:24 AM   #17
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Thanks Rick.
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Old 03-01-2007, 08:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Very cool, I'm extremely interested in trying out the 13.5 and 10.5 to see how they compare to the Novak versions. Do they ship with sintered rotors? They're sensored, right? Are the plugs the type that work with the Novak/LRP ESC's? If the plugs are removable at both ends, offering wires in varying lengths would be really cool. A lot of people are put off by the long sensor harness on Novak motors that can't easily be shortened.

Are you guys allowed to speak about the ESC, and what went awry, or why the project was shelved? :-(
The motors will arrive withthe bestpower combination possible. If that means sintered rotors, then that is what they will come with :-) The motor/plugs will work with LRP/Novak ESC's.

The project was shelved because we felt we could provide a better motor for existing brushless users. At this time, we felt that the same could not be said for an ESC. There are also issues with our factory drivers and sponsors. Ryan Cavalieri, for instance, can still use his LRP ESCs and Team Orion motors - fulfilling all of his sponsorhip obligations.

We also feel that the term system to describe BL should be phased out. New brushless users do not need to buy "systems" as they may have had to in the past. A racer can buy an LRP BL/brushed speedo to run his brushed motors, then he can buy one of several brushless motors later on when is ready/saved his money/etc. Since there are many choices and combinations available, the term "system" is obsolete and does brushless motors a disservice in general by giving the imperession that you have to spend a lot of money all at once to get involved with them.
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:01 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
The motors will arrive withthe bestpower combination possible. If that means sintered rotors, then that is what they will come with :-) The motor/plugs will work with LRP/Novak ESC's.

The project was shelved because we felt we could provide a better motor for existing brushless users. At this time, we felt that the same could not be said for an ESC. There are also issues with our factory drivers and sponsors. Ryan Cavalieri, for instance, can still use his LRP ESCs and Team Orion motors - fulfilling all of his sponsorhip obligations.

We also feel that the term system to describe BL should be phased out. New brushless users do not need to buy "systems" as they may have had to in the past. A racer can buy an LRP BL/brushed speedo to run his brushed motors, then he can buy one of several brushless motors later on when is ready/saved his money/etc. Since there are many choices and combinations available, the term "system" is obsolete and does brushless motors a disservice in general by giving the imperession that you have to spend a lot of money all at once to get involved with them.
Thanks for the candid response, it's nice to hear about these things rather than wonder forever.

It appears we're starting to see some convergence in the brushless motor world where most/all new sensored motors will work with the Novak or LRP, and the sensorless motors will work with the other ESC's. The only odd man out is the GM motors that seem to use a different sensor harness connector than the GTB/LRP. I've seen adapters that will let the Genius 95 use motors with the Novak/LRP style connector, so presumably it goes both ways.

Compatibility is huge, and it's nice to companies like Orion getting into the game and playing nice with existing companies like Novak and LRP. No doubt, the real "killer app" in regard to ESC features will be size. If someone comes out with a smaller brushless ESC, they're going to sell a mountain of them.
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:38 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
We also feel that the term system to describe BL should be phased out. New brushless users do not need to buy "systems" as they may have had to in the past. A racer can buy an LRP BL/brushed speedo to run his brushed motors, then he can buy one of several brushless motors later on when is ready/saved his money/etc. Since there are many choices and combinations available, the term "system" is obsolete and does brushless motors a disservice in general by giving the imperession that you have to spend a lot of money all at once to get involved with them.
Perhaps you folks at Peak/Orion would feel differently about the term "System" if you were actually offering a BL esc of your own. Sales of brushless systems have far outpaced sales of the individual components.

Customers seem to prefer the ease and simplicity of purchasing everything they require to begin running brushless in one package. All components assembled and wired together--plug and play. And if they have questions or problems, they only need to contact one company, not several. The price of a complete system is also slightly less costly than purchasing the components separately.

And components from different manufacturers are not always 100% compatible--plug compatibility does not guarantee design compatibility. For example, not all ESC manufacturers have the esc circuitry necessary to prevent thermal shutdown in the motors.

So, not only is the concept of "brushless systems" not obsolete nor does it do BL motors some sort of a disservice, it will be even more advantageous as BL technology continues to evolve and offer more features to future customers.
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:43 AM   #21
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Isn't the hope and goal that eventually all these things will work together in harmony? That any brushless ESC can work with any brushless motor? It's extremely confusing for the consumer already, since not all brushless are compatible, or created equally. I'm sure Novak is happy they're selling a ton of motors, and ESC combos, but surely they also embrace fair competition in the marketplace. It's what's right for the consumer, don't you think?
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Old 03-01-2007, 11:08 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Isn't the hope and goal that eventually all these things will work together in harmony? That any brushless ESC can work with any brushless motor? It's extremely confusing for the consumer already, since not all brushless are compatible, or created equally. I'm sure Novak is happy they're selling a ton of motors, and ESC combos, but surely they also embrace fair competition in the marketplace. It's what's right for the consumer, don't you think?
I don't understand your comment--as far as we know, all sensored BL products do work together. Please don't misunderstand and criticize Novak for including BL esc circuitry that we believe is essential for protecting the user's motor. As BL esc technology advances, you will see companies offering more and more features similar to the differences seen in brush motor escs.

We welcome competition, but that does not mean that what I said concerning the advantages of "Systems" from both a design and price differential is not valid.

We also welcome more motor companies releasing sensored BL motors. After all, the more sensored BL motors that other companies release, the more potential esc sales Novak will have.
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Old 03-01-2007, 11:10 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo
Perhaps you folks at Peak/Orion would feel differently about the term "System" if you were actually offering a BL esc of your own. Sales of brushless systems have far outpaced sales of the individual components.
Of course they will as that is how they have had to been sold when there is only one or two manufacturers selling them (LRP and Novak sensored). If we had a speedo we would market it as the best speedo for bushless motor use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo
Customers seem to prefer the ease and simplicity of purchasing everything they require to begin running brushless in one package. All components assembled and wired together--plug and play. And if they have questions or problems, they only need to contact one company, not several.
This may be true, but the brushed ESC and motor market has never had a problem with different manufacturers selling each piece of the puzzle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo
The price of a complete system is also slightly less costly than purchasing the components separately.
You are right! When you buy the Novak GTB and Velociti 3.5 as a system at Tower Hobbies, you save $1.00 compared to purchasing them separately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo
And components from different manufacturers are not always 100% compatible--plug compatibility does not guarantee design compatibility. For example, not all ESC manufacturers have the esc circuitry necessary to prevent thermal shutdown in the motors.
Compatibility between ESCs and motors should be the number one priority for ESC and motor manufacturers. Brushless is supposed to be easier than brushed right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo
So, not only is the concept of "brushless systems" not obsolete nor does it do BL motors some sort of a disservice, it will be even more advantageous as BL technology continues to evolve and offer more features to future customers.
I disagree. The term "system" implies that the a $270.00 motor and ESC (still using GTB and 3.5 as example) must be purchased together when in fact a driver coming up can buy a GTB ESC, continue using his brushed equipment, and choose to buy a brushless motor later on if he wants to.

Using the term "felixibility" will do a lot more for BL, and electric in general, than using the term "system".
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Old 03-01-2007, 11:29 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo
I don't understand your comment--as far as we know, all sensored BL products do work together. Please don't misunderstand and criticize Novak for including BL esc circuitry that we believe is essential for protecting the user's motor. As BL esc technology advances, you will see companies offering more and more features similar to the differences seen in brush motor escs.

We welcome competition, but that does not mean that what I said concerning the advantages of "Systems" from both a design and price differential is not valid.

We also welcome more motor companies releasing sensored BL motors. After all, the more sensored BL motors that other companies release, the more potential esc sales Novak will have.
I didn't intend to be critical, I was just trying to get my head around Novak's position on this issue. I think I misunderstood your comment about the number of combined systems being sold, and the single point of contact for tech support as a swipe at other companies developing motors that are compatible with your ESCs. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I've been deeply satisfied with both of my GTB's and all of my 6 Novak brushless motors. I also believe Novak has blazed the trail in brushless motor racing, and deserves consideration as the basis for some hard rules that will eventually define how motors can be designed to use in spec racing, like a true brushless stock class. I have a feeling we'll hear a lot more about this in the coming year.
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Old 03-01-2007, 11:53 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Of course they will as that is how they have had to been sold when there is only one or two manufacturers selling them (LRP and Novak sensored). If we had a speedo we would market it as the best speedo for bushless motor use.

This may be true, but the brushed ESC and motor market has never had a problem with different manufacturers selling each piece of the puzzle.

You are right! When you buy the Novak GTB and Velociti 3.5 as a system at Tower Hobbies, you save $1.00 compared to purchasing them separately.

Compatibility between ESCs and motors should be the number one priority for ESC and motor manufacturers. Brushless is supposed to be easier than brushed right?

I disagree. The term "system" implies that the a $270.00 motor and ESC (still using GTB and 3.5 as example) must be purchased together when in fact a driver coming up can buy a GTB ESC, continue using his brushed equipment, and choose to buy a brushless motor later on if he wants to.

Using the term "felixibility" will do a lot more for BL, and electric in general, than using the term "system".
Let's clear up a few things. Novak has been selling individual BL components---escs and motors---separately from the beginning so that customers can decide how they want to phase into the BL technology.

Our experience indicates that very few customers actually want to use BL escs with brush motors unless they have to---race directors not allowing BL motors, for example. So we sell all of the pieces of the puzzle--whatever the customer chooses.

I agree that compatibility should be an important priority with BL technology. Although, as far as I know, Peak/Orion has not provided Novak with motors so that Novak could conduct compatibility tests with our BL escs, hmmm?

The word "System" does not imply that the items must be purchased together or why would Novak---from the beginning---offer components separately. Many new customers want the new BL technology because it is much easier, lower maintenance, and they just want to have fun with their R/C cars. Systems offer the most appealing choice for them.

For those interested in more flexibility, separate BL components---mix and match---is the way to go.

So, have it your way: plug 'n play or mix 'n match. Novak offers products for each group of customers.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:00 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
I didn't intend to be critical, I was just trying to get my head around Novak's position on this issue. I think I misunderstood your comment about the number of combined systems being sold, and the single point of contact for tech support as a swipe at other companies developing motors that are compatible with your ESCs. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I've been deeply satisfied with both of my GTB's and all of my 6 Novak brushless motors. I also believe Novak has blazed the trail in brushless motor racing, and deserves consideration as the basis for some hard rules that will eventually define how motors can be designed to use in spec racing, like a true brushless stock class. I have a feeling we'll hear a lot more about this in the coming year.
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You have always been a valued Novak supporter and we value your contributions and comments. Novak welcomes new BL vendors as they will all contribute to the growth of the BL segment of R/C.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:07 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by syndr0me
I didn't intend to be critical, I was just trying to get my head around Novak's position on this issue. I think I misunderstood your comment about the number of combined systems being sold, and the single point of contact for tech support as a swipe at other companies developing motors that are compatible with your ESCs. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I've been deeply satisfied with both of my GTB's and all of my 6 Novak brushless motors. I also believe Novak has blazed the trail in brushless motor racing, and deserves consideration as the basis for some hard rules that will eventually define how motors can be designed to use in spec racing, like a true brushless stock class. I have a feeling we'll hear a lot more about this in the coming year.
I have been recommending to Roar a set of rules for both Stock and 19t brushless equivalent motors using the existing ROAR Modified Brushless Rules with most of the tolerances tightened up so that all the motors are as equal as possible. We have introduced both the 13.5T motor for stock and the 10.5T motor for 19T. The 13.5T has been extremely successful so far with a lot of clubs using this motor as a speck stock brushless class. The 10.5T has also been successful against 19T brushed motors. Some people might think that Novak is trying to push our motor as the basis for this set of rules but somebody had to get it going. The set of rules that I am proposing with the tightened up tolerances will fit both the Novak and Reedy/LRP brushless motors. These are the two motors that have been around the longest. I don't know about the Orion as I have not seen one yet. I think it is absolutely imperative that we have a "one type" motor with a set of tightened up specs for these two classes to grow.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:15 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Novak
I have been recommending to Roar a set of rules for both Stock and 19t brushless equivalent motors using the existing ROAR Modified Brushless Rules with most of the tolerances tightened up so that all the motors are as equal as possible. We have introduced both the 13.5T motor for stock and the 10.5T motor for 19T. The 13.5T has been extremely successful so far with a lot of clubs using this motor as a speck stock brushless class. The 10.5T has also been successful against 19T brushed motors. Some people might think that Novak is trying to push our motor as the basis for this set of rules but somebody had to get it going. The set of rules that I am proposing with the tightened up tolerances will fit both the Novak and Reedy/LRP brushless motors. These are the two motors that have been around the longest. I don't know about the Orion as I have not seen one yet. I think it is absolutely imperative that we have a "one type" motor with a set of tightened up specs for these two classes to grow.
Bob Novak
That's good to hear Bob, thank you for being proactive about this, I think many of us believe it's a crucial step toward getting brushless racing accepted on a larger scale outside of mod.

Apparently Orion has a 13.5 motor on its way, and LRP appears to have two, one in the X11 series and another in their budget line. It will be VERY interesting to see how these compare. "13.5" has basically become synonymous with brushless stock, so hopefully that remains true with the 13.5 from other companies, otherwise it's going to cause a lot of confusion. Now would be a great time to adopt some hard rules on the design of brushless stock and spec mod (19T) brushless motors. Ideally, the new LRP and Orion motors are close enough that they can all fall within those rules, and not potentially waste the engineering that's gone into them in terms of sanctioned racing.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:27 PM   #29
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we are not in business to release new products that we don't think are better (faster) that what is already out there, but we do not want it to be so much faster that is is outlwawed because of a performance advantage.
Ah... now the problems start if your 13.5 is even a little faster than the Novak 13.5 you force all who race in a 13.5 B/L class to buy a Orion/Peak motor or be at a dissadvantage So then Novak tweaks their 13.5 and comes out with a Improved 13.5 thats a touch faster... now I have to buy a Novak .... after a while I have a box full of perfectly good B/L motors that are only good for bashing
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:29 PM   #30
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Oops... sorry Bob.. I was typing and didnt see your post
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