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Old 02-04-2007, 11:57 PM   #76
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This is the problem with single-issue threads straying around - they just look at one single thing and not the whole picture.

The reason that EFRA and JMRCA have reduced the number of cells is the problems we have had with motors burning out, speedos thermalling and the cars being too fast for the tracks, and the drivers - in Modified. It has nothing to do with LiPo/NiMh lobbying. Drivers run more Mod in Europe than I understand is run in the US, hence a bigger problem.

Recently, this has led to an upsurge in 19T and 27T entries. To make Mod less expensive, EFRA have reduced the number of cells to 5, and JMRCA to 4. However, 19T and 27T are still 6-cell. ROAR have not made any changes, as yet.

Our biggest classes - 19T and 27T - are still using 6-cells, so how does anyone come to the conclusion that this is a NiMh battery company lobby? And since ROAR have not made a decision, this lobby certainly isn't working in the USA!! Any LiPo manufacturer can sell as many as they like to about 70% of the TC drivers - so why do the adverts never mention this, and why don't you lobby ROAR to get them made legal??

Looking at the situation overall, the concern must be that a new driver (certainly in Europe) can't buy in the shop what we race at the Club. Our best years of participation are wehn Tamiya had kits that looked like cars, in the shops, and they had a brushed motor and 6 cells.

People are gravitating to Gas not because they are fed up with batteries and motors, but because they can buy them in the shops as RTRs, take them to a track, and race them. They look just like what everyone else is running, and everyone else helps them with advice, not buying recommendations!!

So, the question remains - are GP4600s any good, and should we drive them?
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Old 02-05-2007, 12:12 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
Yes, but the racers make the choice. Lipo is there, buy it and run it. If the sanctioning bodies have ZERO attendance and racers for the big races then they have to rethink things and allow it. Like I have always said, vote with your $$$. Buy LiPo and don't attend races that won't allow them.
Do you really think the racers that attend the "big races" are going to boycot because they dont allow LiPo's
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Old 02-05-2007, 12:24 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
Yes, but the racers make the choice. Lipo is there, buy it and run it. If the sanctioning bodies have ZERO attendance and racers for the big races then they have to rethink things and allow it. Like I have always said, vote with your $$$. Buy LiPo and don't attend races that won't allow them.
Exactly!!

For my situation:

Lipo
Battery - $130
Charger - $80
Total - $210

IB4200
Battery - $75
2nd Battery - $75
Discharger - $100
Batt warmer/cooler - $90
Total - $340
(It would be the same for GPs or any other NiMh)

Plus I don't have to arrive at the track an hour in advance to charge before I can start running. I can get there with minutes to spare, sauce my tires and make the first heat without any worries.

Not just economics but for the sake of convenience and simplicity, Lipo is the way to go. RC is a hobby for me, not a second career!
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Old 02-05-2007, 04:07 AM   #79
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Can we PLEASE put the "Lipo is the future" argument to one side for a moment?

This is a thread about the GP4600. It's a NiMH cell. It exists whether you like it or not. I just want to hear from anyone that has seen these cells in real life.
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Old 02-05-2007, 05:42 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sosidge
Can we PLEASE put the "Lipo is the future" argument to one side for a moment?

This is a thread about the GP4600. It's a NiMH cell. It exists whether you like it or not. I just want to hear from anyone that has seen these cells in real life.
They look just like the other with GP4600 written on the side.
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Old 02-05-2007, 06:40 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
This is the problem with single-issue threads straying around - they just look at one single thing and not the whole picture.

The reason that EFRA and JMRCA have reduced the number of cells is the problems we have had with motors burning out, speedos thermalling and the cars being too fast for the tracks, and the drivers - in Modified. It has nothing to do with LiPo/NiMh lobbying. Drivers run more Mod in Europe than I understand is run in the US, hence a bigger problem.

Recently, this has led to an upsurge in 19T and 27T entries. To make Mod less expensive, EFRA have reduced the number of cells to 5, and JMRCA to 4. However, 19T and 27T are still 6-cell. ROAR have not made any changes, as yet.

Our biggest classes - 19T and 27T - are still using 6-cells, so how does anyone come to the conclusion that this is a NiMh battery company lobby? And since ROAR have not made a decision, this lobby certainly isn't working in the USA!! Any LiPo manufacturer can sell as many as they like to about 70% of the TC drivers - so why do the adverts never mention this, and why don't you lobby ROAR to get them made legal??

Looking at the situation overall, the concern must be that a new driver (certainly in Europe) can't buy in the shop what we race at the Club. Our best years of participation are wehn Tamiya had kits that looked like cars, in the shops, and they had a brushed motor and 6 cells.

People are gravitating to Gas not because they are fed up with batteries and motors, but because they can buy them in the shops as RTRs, take them to a track, and race them. They look just like what everyone else is running, and everyone else helps them with advice, not buying recommendations!!

So, the question remains - are GP4600s any good, and should we drive them?

Guess what...guys are still burning up equipment but now they can't make it through a 5 minute race (in Japan it's been a major complaint). If these "Pros" racing mod couldn't figure out how to change their gearing to run cool enough to finish a race then they chose to destroy their equipment. It's always been a question of gearing and not batteries.

As for lobbying ROAR...we have been. There was a thread here on this very site called 'ROAR to 4-cell' and it was visited by a many officials from ROAR including AdrianM (who I respect though don't always agree with) and it was a hard fought thread. Personally, I believe that thread is part of the reason a decision wasn't made this year on going to 4-5 cells and we got a lot of discussion on the future of LiPo. Through those discussions it was made pretty clear that the reason they wanted to make the change to 4-5 cells was strictly to keep LiPo out of the market. Every other reason they could come up with was quickly shot down.

Tamiya still builds kits that look like cars and they still make some of the best stuff from beginner to all out pro.

People are going to gas because of RTR??? Nope, there are still PLENTY of RTR electrics too. People are going to gas because they don't have to deal with ROAR and batteries are getting expensive and don't last. That and runtimes. Who enjoys buying that electric kit only to have it die every 5-6 minutes when you can get a nitro kit and when it's empty...quick shot of fuel and back at it. You can run all day...or until something breaks.
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Old 02-05-2007, 10:59 AM   #82
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When GP released the 4300 it was similar in capacity to the IB3800 with less voltage. We will have to wait and see what the 4600 is like but it's very easy for a company to print a higher mAH shrink and release a cell with lower capacity and then improve it as time goes on.

As far as reliability vs performance goes it's a trade off. The newer generation cells are 1 full milliohm lower in iR and .06 more in average voltage with and extra 1000 mAH compared to what we had 3 years ago. That is a big increase in performance. We have tested GP3700 and GP4300s and they have the same reliability issues as IB due to the lower IR and higher voltage.


As far as Lipos go they are good for the people who want to play but for racing I fear that it will create allot of issues. I have been doing allot of research on Lipos and I know for a fact that they can improve this technology just like NiMH have been improving. So for racing you will need to buy the Lipo of the week or month so nothing will change except that it cost 100+ dollars for a high end Lipo pack.

There is no perfect solution and racing will always cost money. As a racer you want the best possible equipment to go as fast as possible.
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Old 02-05-2007, 11:26 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
When GP released the 4300 it was similar in capacity to the IB3800 with less voltage. We will have to wait and see what the 4600 is like but it's very easy for a company to print a higher mAH shrink and release a cell with lower capacity and then improve it as time goes on.

As far as reliability vs performance goes it's a trade off. The newer generation cells are 1 full milliohm lower in iR and .06 more in average voltage with and extra 1000 mAH compared to what we had 3 years ago. That is a big increase in performance. We have tested GP3700 and GP4300s and they have the same reliability issues as IB due to the lower IR and higher voltage.


As far as Lipos go they are good for the people who want to play but for racing I fear that it will create allot of issues. I have been doing allot of research on Lipos and I know for a fact that they can improve this technology just like NiMH have been improving. So for racing you will need to buy the Lipo of the week or month so nothing will change except that it cost 100+ dollars for a high end Lipo pack.

There is no perfect solution and racing will always cost money. As a racer you want the best possible equipment to go as fast as possible.




Yeah Danny your right ...

Nothing will change cept when they do release a more betta Li-Po it will still last 10 times longer than a NiMH...

Thats why I now no longer purchase those expensive 4200Ib cells that do not last very long....

If you could just try to improve the longevity of the cells you already have, I may had consider continuing to race with them....

However , these 4200`s lifespan is short and makes using um more expensive than a Orion Li-Po 3200...

I`v been racing as long as most ...
Always in years past only considered using roar legal cells till now...
so
If I`m switching, you will have to reconsider the game and make longer lasting batterys in order to compete....

or
well

you know....
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Old 02-05-2007, 11:55 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
...
...
Recently, this has led to an upsurge in 19T and 27T entries. To make Mod less expensive, EFRA have reduced the number of cells to 5, and JMRCA to 4. However, 19T and 27T are still 6-cell. ROAR have not made any changes, as yet.
...
I don't disagree with anyone of you guys but there is a little misinformation here: EFRA does not specifiy 19T and 27T classes. There is no approved motor list and nothing. (They used to have a recommendation for 17T spec but it is eliminated from the new rules) They only specify one class for electric and that has the similar specs what ROAR calls mod except now it is 5 cells.

Yes there are spec classes in Europe as well but those are not sanctioned by EFRA. People are talking about going 5 cell in those classes just to keep the batteries common with mod so the move up would be easier.

I don't know the JMRCA rules but I guess their "stock" class uses 23T motors

IFMAR has also only one electric TC class and that is also like ROAR mod. No spec 19 or stock class.
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Old 02-05-2007, 12:08 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvt01
I don't disagree with anyone of you guys but there is a little misinformation here: EFRA does not specifiy 19T and 27T classes. There is no approved motor list and nothing. (They used to have a recommendation for 17T spec but it is eliminated from the new rules) They only specify one class for electric and that has the similar specs what ROAR calls mod except now it is 5 cells.

Yes there are spec classes in Europe as well but those are not sanctioned by EFRA. People are talking about going 5 cell in those classes just to keep the batteries common with mod so the move up would be easier.

I don't know the JMRCA rules but I guess their "stock" class uses 23T motors

IFMAR has also only one electric TC class and that is also like ROAR mod. No spec 19 or stock class.
Oh, I'll have to remember that. Thanks.
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Old 02-05-2007, 12:12 PM   #86
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what happened to the days i can stick my battery pack on a 15 min PROTECH charger and put a voltmeter to it...



... or the old days of using:



maybe we should run "D" sized batteries for more mah :P

You know, in the medical field they have sub-C with 5000mah and 6400mah...
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Old 02-05-2007, 12:37 PM   #87
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That's because those sanctioned events are all about the Best of the Best. That's the whole point of it. Nobody cares that much about a Busch champion, formula 3000 or whatever it is this year, indy lites, cotton bowl by xyz corp.. we only care about the big one. Those titles are only useful to a handful of marketeers.

Those who race because they like competition pick up a new pack every couple of months. Those who race just to get out of the house, what's it really matter? (what happened to the gentlemen's agreement?) Those who bash, this is not an issue.

The lipo guys need to simma down. Most of your manufacturers or aftermarket guys will need to come out with springs for the lightened loads unless you guys plan to make even weights with sub-c's, other wise your car might start skipping across the corners and the heavy beast o nimhs will passing back by you on the inside.. (dont forget to balance those cells.. er or as the old school guys call it - equalise. same idea. make them close as possible in performance to get the most out of them. i'm sure somebody will come up with a way to 'match' them so you 'shouldn't' have to 'balance' them often..)

There are a few months before anything is set in stone, and if you race competitively other than at JimBob's garage basement raceway 'n' tackle shop on the weekend, you'll be buying new cells no matter what. Nothing replaces the karma of fresh cells.
I like to atleast get on the track with most of the top stuff so I know that its me and what I have done with the equipment and not the equipment itself that is the reason for my performance (or lack thereof.)
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Old 02-05-2007, 12:46 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason
That's because those sanctioned events are all about the Best of the Best. That's the whole point of it. Nobody cares that much about a Busch champion, formula 3000 or whatever it is this year, indy lites, cotton bowl by xyz corp.. we only care about the big one. Those titles are only useful to a handful of marketeers.

Those who race because they like competition pick up a new pack every couple of months. Those who race just to get out of the house, what's it really matter? (what happened to the gentlemen's agreement?) Those who bash, this is not an issue.

The lipo guys need to simma down. Most of your manufacturers or aftermarket guys will need to come out with springs for the lightened loads unless you guys plan to make even weights with sub-c's, other wise your car might start skipping across the corners and the heavy beast o nimhs will passing back by you on the inside.. (dont forget to balance those cells.. er or as the old school guys call it - equalise. same idea. make them close as possible in performance to get the most out of them. i'm sure somebody will come up with a way to 'match' them so you 'shouldn't' have to 'balance' them often..)

There are a few months before anything is set in stone, and if you race competitively other than at JimBob's garage basement raceway 'n' tackle shop on the weekend, you'll be buying new cells no matter what. Nothing replaces the karma of fresh cells.
I like to atleast get on the track with most of the top stuff so I know that its me and what I have done with the equipment and not the equipment itself that is the reason for my performance (or lack thereof.)
Us "LiPo guys" already add weight to meet minimum spec and to keep the car planted. That's nothing new and as for equalizing cells...most LiPo chargers will do that and my batteries have an equalizer port so....no need for a battery matcher. The arguement gets old...but old schoolers refuse to look at anything except what they're already using and will use every myth and legend to keep LiPo out of racing. They've been trying the same junk with brushless motors but guess what...they're still coming. The days of discharging and matching and soldering batteries are almost gone and so are the days of endless hours of motor maintanence. The days of FUN, RACING and making friends at the track are coming.
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Old 02-05-2007, 01:51 PM   #89
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Old 02-05-2007, 04:17 PM   #90
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Lipo is the future? Maybe, still too early to tell. ROAR is only interested in the sponsored racer? Rules are only in place to keep LiPo out? Did we just walk into the 'Conspiracy Zone'?

Seriously, ROAR and all of the other sanctioning bodies are in place to create a set of rules that we can all race by so that when we hit the track, we are somewhat assured that we are on a level playing field. I don't for one minute believe that they are the puppet of any manufacturer. If they were, it would be Trinity, and we know that they have not been able to pull of that coup.

No matter what we have, there will be some who find a way to engineer an advantage. LiPo will have matched or team batteries. Brushless will have special armatures or cans or unique programming for the speedo. It's just a fact of racing.


A lot of people don't like the comparison between us and NASCAR, but take a look at the history. When NASCAR was formed, it was to enable all of the moonshiners to race against each other within a set of rules. It worked great until a few racers started pouring money into their programs and began discovering ways to increase performance. Then, to compete, everybody had to do it. Now, there isn't anything stock at all about Stock Car racing. It's all high-dollar race-specific engineering.

R/C started the same way. Home built cars and generic parts. Then, along came kits, and everybody started running these cars. Later, someone found out you could hand-wind a motor and it was faster and more efficient. Another racer found that not all batteries were created equal, so they found a way to cycle and match them to find the cream of the crop.


No technology is going to solve our problems, all it will do is change our problems. So, bring on the newer batteries. If they are good, we'll buy them, if not, they'll sit on the hobby store shelves.
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