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Old 02-02-2007, 11:46 AM   #61
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Default Lipo Supid

While I admit to being pretty lipo stupid, I did just buy an electric heli. When I was looking for cells for it, (guided by a friend of mine) he pointed out you can get the same size cell (or cells) for voltage and capacity (I'm using 11.1, 3-cell packs). While looking at different packs, things that ranged were capacity and discharge rate. the more you $$ spent, the more capacity and/or Discharge rate. A higher discharge rate meant (in my mind) the more punch or power the motor could draw from the pack. Capacity, is just that...how long it will last.

So what's the difference with that then today's nimh battery war..more voltage/less IR/more capacity. We all gain from the companies competing. Maybe the prices don't go down a whole lot, but we get more volts for our buck. And nobody FORCES anybody to go out and buy the latest packs. I have 3 packs from last year, and 3 packs I purchased new this year. I don't plan on buying new packs till the beginning of our indoor season this coming Sept. Granted I'm just a "house rat" or "club racer" but I don't get sucked into buying the latest and greatest just cause it's there.

I'm willing to bet $10.00 then when lipo's do hit the main stream...the matchers will NOT go out of business, CE or another company will come up with devides to match these cells to get the most out of a pack.

In addition to that..somebody also told me you can get lipo-chargers CHEAP, and that was one of his arguments for going lipo. While this holds true... you can also spend big dollars on lipo chargers that do more then just charge, some equalize the cells at the same time.

What's my point... nothing will change when lipo's hit the main stream, it'll be the same old thing. Somebody said it earlier in this thread, you can't stop progress...why would you want to.

The same thing is being said about brushless motors... we run a 4300 4-cell oval class. We've all learned you can still get a bum motor that just won't get up and go like the others. People will still find a way to "tune" these motors, adjust their timing (those that don't know it..you can adjust the timing on a 4300 and 5800 motor). I personally don't notice a difference, but it might be what another friend of mine calls "Mental Masterbation".

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Old 02-03-2007, 10:58 PM   #62
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Its the old voltage/capacity, discharge arguement again. Yes, you are forced to buy the latest NiMh cell to compete, or stay on top, atleast in the 19T, and up class. NiMh's have a dischage curve, lots of voltage at the beginning, and tapering off toward the end of the cells capacity. Indeed its true we do not use anywhere near a packs capacity anymore since the ol 3300 days, but with higher capacity cells, they stay in there voltage "sweet spots" alot longer. Lipo's do not have this effect, its a very flat curve. It starts out at 7.4v and stays there till just about the end of its capacity, very clean and simple. Buy the capacity you need and your done. Todays orion 3800 Lipo is like a 4200 NiMh, so even a 2500 Lipo would probably still make a 5min race, if someone could make one at around $45. Not to mention it will last you for years. So why do some still think it will be battery business as usual once lipo are allowed?
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Old 02-03-2007, 11:32 PM   #63
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You know, the price for batterys in relation to other expenses is very minimal.

A good IB4200 can be had for about $65

I got two in september for the IIC, and have used ONLY those two packs since. I just got a new pack with higher voltages and did some numbers testing on the discharge equipment I have (I use a reedy quasar 20amps for discharging). Granted it is only 20 amps, the numbers I got were VERY close on my old packs to the new packs. Like a couple hundreths of a volt.

So in 5 months my two packs are still very good. I usually run them at least twice a night, and race once to twice a week. Thats pretty good bang for the buck don't you think?

How much are you spending on tires lately?? I have never had a set of tires last me a coulple months Try a coulpe race days, or heats!!

So, seriously, if you think you need to buy the latest and greatest; don't fret. Just sell your still good used packs to somebody with less money than you who is a newb or a kid. Then they get a good pack, and you basically get a discount on your new stuff!
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Old 02-03-2007, 11:52 PM   #64
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Old 02-04-2007, 03:40 AM   #65
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Or better yet, Sell all your old NiMh (if someone is crazy enough to buy them) and get just one Orion Lipo. Thats all you need for 300+ cycles.
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Old 02-04-2007, 03:57 AM   #66
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anyone know if these cells are more expensive then ib4200? doubt i'd be upgrading though
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Old 02-04-2007, 04:24 AM   #67
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well to the point that pitcrew made, i agree.

and to the point that hobbipro made why buy a battery that you can't legally race at any big event much less almost all club races. so now oyu have spent the same amount on a lipo pack that you could a 4200/4300 packs and now oyu need another charge or upgrade the one you have already. so you into lipo for about 250 nucks and you can't race it. WHY BUY IT?

and for acyrier, you get what you pay for in anything in r/c. if you buy that 35 dollar charger for lipo, not only will it take forever to charge your pack it also won't efficiently do it and condition it, for optimized performance and longevity. also until they find a way to idiot proof the charging operation i don't think they will become roar or ifmar legal. my opinion. also i'm sure you have noticed how much nimh'x have changed/increased over the last four years they are trying to position themselves to compete. and for as long as those companies have been involved in r/c, you could bet they are using those ties for their benefit.

i do hope it changes sometime soon. with brushless and lipo's you could run 15-20 minute mains for electric. SWEET. i think to that brushless being cheapier and less maintenance is why roar agreed to approve them. well once all brushless where wired the same, and the maufacturers explained in detail what each level of motor was so they could write a rule that included both motors.

at least roar has looked out for us in some way, in saving money in the lower maintainanceof brushless in the long run they are cheaper. but they also dictadethat all the motors wire up the same so no one could make a mistake in hooking it up, and that any brushless esc will work with all brushless motors.

well just have to wait and see what happens.
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Old 02-04-2007, 07:47 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzBobby
well to the point that pitcrew made, i agree.

and to the point that hobbipro made why buy a battery that you can't legally race at any big event much less almost all club races. so now oyu have spent the same amount on a lipo pack that you could a 4200/4300 packs and now oyu need another charge or upgrade the one you have already. so you into lipo for about 250 nucks and you can't race it. WHY BUY IT?

and for acyrier, you get what you pay for in anything in r/c. if you buy that 35 dollar charger for lipo, not only will it take forever to charge your pack it also won't efficiently do it and condition it, for optimized performance and longevity. also until they find a way to idiot proof the charging operation i don't think they will become roar or ifmar legal. my opinion. also i'm sure you have noticed how much nimh'x have changed/increased over the last four years they are trying to position themselves to compete. and for as long as those companies have been involved in r/c, you could bet they are using those ties for their benefit.

i do hope it changes sometime soon. with brushless and lipo's you could run 15-20 minute mains for electric. SWEET. i think to that brushless being cheapier and less maintenance is why roar agreed to approve them. well once all brushless where wired the same, and the maufacturers explained in detail what each level of motor was so they could write a rule that included both motors.

at least roar has looked out for us in some way, in saving money in the lower maintainanceof brushless in the long run they are cheaper. but they also dictadethat all the motors wire up the same so no one could make a mistake in hooking it up, and that any brushless esc will work with all brushless motors.

well just have to wait and see what happens.
First, ROAR isn't looking out for anyone but the sponsored racer and brushless is only legal in mod so they haven't done jack as far as brushless yet. Why would someone buy a battery they can't legally use yet...well...most tracks are allowing them since they are the future and if nobody is running NiMh then they HAVE TO ALLOW THEM. People vote with there dollar. The track isn't going to turn everyone away and close their doors just because people aren't using the right kind of battery.
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Old 02-04-2007, 10:55 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
Why would someone buy a battery they can't legally use yet..
screw Roar Li-Po rules...

if Roar does`nt want Li-po ,


I just don`t attend Roar events ..
Simple....


Their rule does not really effect racing at club events and other venue`s one bit....
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:06 AM   #70
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lot's of lather in this thread. I saw the subject as "GP 4600" and was hoping I'd read something about the specifications of these and/or how they might compare with other cells right now...etc..

...But I just read 68 messages of crap.

is there another single thread that might be all battery talk all the time? Or is it best to just look for the individual threads about specific batteries?

thanks.
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Old 02-04-2007, 11:41 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagokenji
lot's of lather in this thread. I saw the subject as "GP 4600" and was hoping I'd read something about the specifications of these and/or how they might compare with other cells right now...etc..

...But I just read 68 messages of crap.
I think this thread from the start had the purpose of discussing the impact of new cell after new cell and everyone's need to have the latest and greatest.

One of the big issues was that the IB4200 is THE CELL to have when racing. No other can touch it's performance. But if you look at another way, if the GP4600 can match its performance that will force the prices down due to competition. If the new cell hurts sales of IB's then the prices will drop to regain the lost market share. This is win win for us. I find it highly unlikely that the GP cell will be so good we have to toss our 4200's, won't happen. But I think there is a very good chance of having an equal substitute. That's when everyone wins.
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Old 02-04-2007, 12:47 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonator
Yeah, here's a surprise...

Japan= 4 cell
Europe = 5 cell
US = 6 cell

About being pro-active....

We all have our own opinions about development.... but in the end we all make our own discisions....

.........THE END........

KR
Richard
In the UK, in both the BRCA and T.O.R.C series they are actually running 4, 5 and 6 cell mod/brushless, but i don't think anybody will race 6 cell not realistic anymore in my opinion for the majority of racers. 4 and 5 cell will run to the same lighter weight, the same as the rest of Europe.
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Old 02-04-2007, 06:26 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagokenji
lot's of lather in this thread. I saw the subject as "GP 4600" and was hoping I'd read something about the specifications of these and/or how they might compare with other cells right now...etc..

...But I just read 68 messages of crap.

is there another single thread that might be all battery talk all the time? Or is it best to just look for the individual threads about specific batteries?

thanks.
The only batteries that even need discussion are LiPo. The rest are simply dead and/or dieing.
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Old 02-04-2007, 08:17 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Don't blame ROAR exclusively. While they do not allow them, there are many more tracks, series, and race organizers with no ROAR affiliation that don't allow them.

While I think going to fewer cells is a tactic to prevent LiPo from getting a foothold, it is the manufacturers and matchers of NiMh cells that have put the pressure on ROAR and non-ROAR tracks/series/race organizers to "outlaw" them.

Rick Hohwart - If this is the case... then what kind of time frame are we looking at for LiPo "legalization"?!? What would be your best guess-timate?! Is 2008 realistic?! Your post above seems rather ominous and if IFMAR/ROAR continue to look for excuses to "outlaw" LiPo... then it may not be a worthwhile investment for Racers who often attend these big sanctioned events.
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Old 02-04-2007, 08:45 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STEALTH
Rick Hohwart - If this is the case... then what kind of time frame are we looking at for LiPo "legalization"?!? What would be your best guess-timate?! Is 2008 realistic?! Your post above seems rather ominous and if IFMAR/ROAR continue to look for excuses to "outlaw" LiPo... then it may not be a worthwhile investment for Racers who often attend these big sanctioned events.
Yes, but the racers make the choice. Lipo is there, buy it and run it. If the sanctioning bodies have ZERO attendance and racers for the big races then they have to rethink things and allow it. Like I have always said, vote with your $$$. Buy LiPo and don't attend races that won't allow them.
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