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Old 02-07-2007, 01:17 PM   #136
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My point is not that Lipos aren't good. They may very will be more durable but the problem is trying to keep racing fair. If you allow them for racing then it will become a pack of the month. Look at how many companies are making Lipos. For sub-c racing cells there is only 3-4 companies who are showing interest and able to make a cell suitable for racing.

I have a few friends who race every week and have sub-c packs that I gave them in September and they are still using them to win A mains so I'm not sure why some think that the current cells only last a few cycles but that can be whole new debate.
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Old 02-07-2007, 02:26 PM   #137
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@Danny
why don`t the org`s & racing bodys allow racers to make there own mind up weather Li-Po is good or not

at the mo they way things are going it`s is really bad with c-cells , general public are getting tired of spending money on the same old crap but with different heat shrink let them make ther eown minds up it`s there money & lifestyle

yes you still be here to match Li-Po`s ,but since so many make Li-Po`s as opposed to 3-4 c-cell makers the price will stay healthy ,no monopoly to be had

it can`t be fair cos life is`nt fair anyways

not saying anymore incase i get in a big hole
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Old 02-07-2007, 03:05 PM   #138
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It's hard to let racers decide as when they put things for voting nobody votes. You also need to know the facts before voting. Those who think Lipos are the way to go just see the benefits of the packs lasting longer than sub-c cells. Yes this maybe the case but what happens when high performance lipos come out do you really think they can reduce IR and improve voltage and keep life expectancy up ? Also this will cost money. Yes for some a 80-120 dollar Lipo is fine but if there is a 165 dollar Lipo that is faster on the track then racers will have to buy it.

If racers are so concerned about life expectancy of there cells then they should buy Sanyo nicads or GP3300s but the fact is the racers want the higher voltage cells. This will not be different with Lipos plus you need to consider 4 cell racing as they will not be able to use Lipos.

Anyway we can debate and argue this point but there is no miracle solutions when it comes to competitive racing. I just want racing to stay fair and hopefully it stays affordable for batteries. When I first started racing it was 50-75 bucks for matched 1200s so the cost of batteries has stayed relatively cheap over time.
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Old 02-07-2007, 03:11 PM   #139
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yeah i know about it will be just as expensive

but we have this scenerio now with C-cells & not only that we got C-cell makers taking the piss out of us by releasing old cells with new heat shrink on

thye are just insulting our intelligence by fooling us they have `Brand New` cells

4cell Hmmm not take of over here ,5 cell will stay ,but would like see 5 cell right across all 3 classe`s in TC ,from the club up to nat`s
then we have some stabilty of some sorts

is this thread derailed now
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Old 02-07-2007, 03:28 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY

4cell Hmmm not take of over here ,5 cell will stay ,but would like see 5 cell right across all 3 classe`s in TC ,from the club up to nat`s
then we have some stabilty of some sorts

You can't discount 4-cells. The world is not just made up of touring cars. 1/12th scale on-road and the pan-car oval classes use 4 cells. There are probably others that I can't think of right now.

Maybe we would be fine with the 3.7 volt LiPo's, but I'm not sure how all of the electronics will handle such low voltage. It would definitely slow all of the classes down dramatically. If there is anything we DON'T need is to significantly increase voltage.

But, in the case of 4-cell racing, we can't allow LiPo to intermingle. There is absolutely no "equivalent" battery to 4 sub-C cells.
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Old 02-07-2007, 05:25 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
Also this will cost money. Yes for some a 80-120 dollar Lipo is fine but if there is a 165 dollar Lipo that is faster on the track then racers will have to buy it.
As noted about a page back, there are still li-po packs that have high and low voltages and higher and lower IR's (just like nicad, and nimh). Danny found some li-po packs with 7.06v and some packs with 7.28v avergae voltage at 35 amps.

As an early adoptor, you (general term for some people on the thread, but nobody in particular) have a 7.0v, I'm gonna wait until the next batch of li-po's that Dannys working on that he feels will be all 7.3v Of course as I only need the one pack, I'm pretty happy to offer Danny $400 for it. Of course in 6 months, when it's 7.4v now that more are working on the technology I'm gonna need another pack.

Of course as the 7.4's are pretty rare, let's say 1 out of 500, Danny is sitting with the one pack, car manufacturer XYZ told him they will give him $750 for any li-po pack like that, and it's worth it, will hold a few events. And don't think somebody like Barry Baker can't make good use of a 7.4v pack over Blackstocks 7.3v, for guys of that talent level, it's like guaranteeing him a 1/4 lap on some tracks.

And the pack IS THE PACK, it's not like sub-c cells where you need 6 low IR mutants to make a pack, you just need the one mutant.... the anomoly, that you don't have.

People that feel it's "equal" and solves everything really don't understand where it will go. And it will go there. You can upgrade your sub-c's or you can upgrade to the new li-po. Technology marches on, improvements will be made, mutant packs are there, and Danny has tested them and has already seen big fluctuations that make killer and average race packs.

It's racing, it will happen, either way. It's technology, not even "OUR" technology, we are mooching it from other industrys, and they don't care about ROAR, equality or you getting pulled 10' on the straight in the stock brushless li-po class when it's supposed to be DEAD EQUAL.

The guys that already have li-po packs will be the worst off. You will need to get new ones.
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Old 02-07-2007, 06:20 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer

The guys that already have li-po packs will be the worst off. You will need to get new ones.
My Orion 3200`s arrive tomorrow....

so I`ll
let
yeah know...
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Old 02-07-2007, 06:24 PM   #143
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If Danny wants to submit a thorough report on the number of cells he tested, who made them, the methods he used to test them, and every other possible variable, I might listen. Forgive me if I don't choose to judge the viability of these cells based on one guy's unpublished findings.

The scenario you suggested would be unfortunate. Perhaps we can work toward a way to regulate the voltage using electronics to even things out, and end the battery wars. I'm pretty sure you won't hear any matchers crying out for that solution, but it's the only way we can ever hope to bring parity to the battery element of electric racing.

In the meantime, forgive me if I sound selfish, but I'm gonna go ahead and stick with LiPo, and feel sorry for people stuck using NiMH. No, really, I'm not kidding. There's exactly NO benefit of NiMH at all. Zero. None. It's inferior in every possible way. Sorry it didn't work out.
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:05 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
yeah i know about it will be just as expensive

but we have this scenerio now with C-cells & not only that we got C-cell makers taking the piss out of us by releasing old cells with new heat shrink on

thye are just insulting our intelligence by fooling us they have `Brand New` cells

4cell Hmmm not take of over here ,5 cell will stay ,but would like see 5 cell right across all 3 classe`s in TC ,from the club up to nat`s
then we have some stabilty of some sorts

is this thread derailed now

I'm not sure where you get your info from as far as companies releasing the same cells in new shrink but I have yet to see this ?

In fact I have seen the opposite with GP and IB actually improving there cells while keeping the same shrink and keeping the price the same.
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:19 PM   #145
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I have been bouncing back and fourth between Orion 3200 Li-Po and SMC IB4200s in my Stock Foam RDX.

My RDX does handle better with the IB4200s then it does with the Li-Pos(with and without weight). My car is also a 1-2 tenths a lap faster at the beginning of the race and pretty much even with Li-Pos at the end of the run.

This is running stock brushed motors.

As some people have pointed out the IB4200s are faster because you can charge them at 7amps and up.

I believe there is a place in racing for both and there will always be people or matchers pushing the cells to the next level. Weather it be Li-Po or NiMh.

Later,
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:20 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
If Danny wants to submit a thorough report on the number of cells he tested, who made them, the methods he used to test them, and every other possible variable, I might listen. Forgive me if I don't choose to judge the viability of these cells based on one guy's unpublished findings.

The scenario you suggested would be unfortunate. Perhaps we can work toward a way to regulate the voltage using electronics to even things out, and end the battery wars. I'm pretty sure you won't hear any matchers crying out for that solution, but it's the only way we can ever hope to bring parity to the battery element of electric racing.

In the meantime, forgive me if I sound selfish, but I'm gonna go ahead and stick with LiPo, and feel sorry for people stuck using NiMH. No, really, I'm not kidding. There's exactly NO benefit of NiMH at all. Zero. None. It's inferior in every possible way. Sorry it didn't work out.

If you think I'm making all of this up then you can also think I'm making up a detailed report ?



My testing is done on a T35GFX set at 35 amps discharge. It's set at a 5 amp charge rate. As far as what manufacturers packs I have tested has nothing to do with my points of view and I will not divulge this info as my point is not to do positive or negative publicity for any Lipo manufacturer.

I have seen fluctuations in the mAH rating , average voltage and IR. Some packs have a higher mAH rating than what it's rated at and others are lower. I have also seen improvements from the same manufacturer within a 1 month period so I know this technology can improve.
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:30 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRASH
I believe there is a place in racing for both and there will always be people or matchers pushing the cells to the next level. Weather it be Li-Po or NiMh.
Yep, vintage class. :-)
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:36 PM   #148
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Quote:
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Yep, vintage class. :-)
all right buddy your at the Birds right? what the hell kind of batts are ya using Lipos are legal there?
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:46 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
If you think I'm making all of this up then you can also think I'm making up a detailed report?
You seem to be a respectable guy, I trust you wouldn't lie.

LiPo probably isn't right for big racing events yet. A lot needs to happen in terms of regulation, and trying to get a sense for what the different companies are doing, and how they apply to our hobby. I'm sure it'll be a while.

With that said, there are already applications in R/C cars where LiPo is a better choice right now, in spite of not being matched or whatever. Bashing, for sure. Off-road, especially in mod where voltage means a lot less. And club racing in general, where lots of guys are sick of dealing with NiMH maintenance. The gap between LiPo and NiMH performance is small, and hardly worth the added trouble of maintaining fast NiMH packs for most people. Leave off a few ounces if you're slower. :-D

So, anyway, enjoy your new 4600's. If you wonder why fewer people are buying packs, go ask Orion and MaxAmps how their LiPo sales are doing.
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Old 02-07-2007, 08:48 PM   #150
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I know no one asked me. But I say run what you want.
If you get beat with lipos buy lipos.
If you get beat with sub-c buy sub-c.
Who cares? As long as its with in the limitations run whats fastest.
I bet if you mix the two it will tell the story.
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