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Old 07-18-2007, 10:34 AM   #91
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Saving time and money doesnt mean much when the guys I race with have a performance advantage because they stayed with NiMh and I didnt. No where in the results does it say that I was able to charge my pack up in 10 minutes instead of 30 does it?

I guess I can still use them to practice.
If you're that hardcore, then you better get rid of them. I'm sure you'll find someone to take those pieces of crap off your hands...LOL Well, if they're Peak/Orions.
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:42 AM   #92
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Only practically blind lipo proponents can see a test in which a 1 year old NiMh cells perform as good or better than 2 month old lipos and conclude that its time for everyone o switch lipos.

Trust me, I'm not a hardcore racer, but I thought for the money I spent, I thought I would have an advantage.

I'm the only guy thats opted for Lipos where I race and I guess I'm still a proponent because they are easy, but how many guys will switch once I have to admit that I'm little off the pace I was last year because they just are not as good as NiMh?

Sorry, Joe, they arent for sale, based upon this data, they will work great in my 1/8 scale starter box.
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:56 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Ed237 View Post
Only practically blind lipo proponents can see a test in which a 1 year old NiMh cells perform as good or better than 2 month old lipos and conclude that its time for everyone o switch lipos.

Trust me, I'm not a hardcore racer, but I thought for the money I spent, I thought I would have an advantage.

I'm the only guy thats opted for Lipos where I race and I guess I'm still a proponent because they are easy, but how many guys will switch once I have to admit that I'm little off the pace I was last year because they just are not as good as NiMh?
You bought LiPo for the wrong reason, then. The benefit of LiPo is not how its voltage compares to NiMH in stock racing. NiMH will do better there, so hang on to it if that's your thing.

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Trust me, I'm not a hardcore racer, but I thought for the money I spent, I thought I would have an advantage.
It sounds like you're mad LiPo didn't let you gain an advantage by "cheating" with higher voltage. Why not drop some weight, then? If your LiPo car isn't faster underweight, you can be sure it's not the battery's fault.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:00 AM   #94
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I don't give a crap if they're a little slower. Really, I don't. Sometimes, I win with them, sometimes I don't. I have fun with them every time and the batteries never have to come out of the cars...top them off after a run and you're good to go.

Last Saturday, we had 5 heats and I had cars in 4 of them...I ran 3 and I lent my truck out to a friend who was running Rookie (same one I was running in stock truck). I guess I just have a different idea of what fun means...that was fun, even with 60 less mv.

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Only practically blind lipo proponents can see a test in which a 1 year old NiMh cells perform as good or better than 2 month old lipos and conclude that its time for everyone o switch lipos.

Trust me, I'm not a hardcore racer, but I thought for the money I spent, I thought I would have an advantage.

I'm the only guy thats opted for Lipos where I race and I guess I'm still a proponent because they are easy, but how many guys will switch once I have to admit that I'm little off the pace I was last year because they just are not as good as NiMh?

Sorry, Joe, they arent for sale, based upon this data, they will work great in my 1/8 scale starter box.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:06 AM   #95
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Why not drop some weight, then?
That's kinda personal, don't you think?
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:06 AM   #96
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Look, guys, I was ready for new cells, my NiMh were getting tired, my club lets us use lipos, I decided it was time to try them, and now I find out, that my old packs may have been just as good, if not better, than the 2 $120 lipos I just bought. I don't know if I would have still bought them if I could have read this post 3 months ago.

All I wanted was to get back to the performance I had when my batteries were new to find out in order to do that, I need to get more NiMh batteries.

I have actually added lead weights to bring my vehicle back up to race spec.

Now I'm being accused of being some sort of cheating hardcore racer?
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:16 AM   #97
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Na, not a cheater, I understand why you're frustrated. Maybe you can further bend the rules by shedding a few ounces to make up for anything you feel like you're losing with voltage?

All but two of us locally run 13.5's in stock, with a combination of LiPo and NiMH (minimum weight rules in place), and if there's a big difference between the two, we're not really seeing it. I wonder if the voltage issue is more noticeable with brushed motors?
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:20 AM   #98
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Look, guys, I was ready for new cells, my NiMh were getting tired, my club lets us use lipos, I decided it was time to try them, and now I find out, that my old packs may have been just as good, if not better, than the 2 $120 lipos I just bought. I don't know if I would have still bought them if I could have read this post 3 months ago.

All I wanted was to get back to the performance I had when my batteries were new to find out in order to do that, I need to get more NiMh batteries.

I have actually added lead weights to bring my vehicle back up to race spec.

Now I'm being accused of being some sort of cheating hardcore racer?

What LiPo's did you buy?

I've been the first person to pour water over people who jump on the LiPo bandwagon and claim it is the end of Nickel cells and that these are the perfect powerplant.

Not because I don't think the cells have merits (they clearly do), but because nothing is perfect.

Experience is showing that they are not the answer to everything.

There were some figures posted on one of the Orion threads a while ago which showed that the Platinum cells had significantly lower voltage under discharge load than a 6-cell pack of IB's - Orion tried to sweep the stats under the carpet, saying it was a different kind of voltage that LiPos gave, that they didn't race TurboMatchers etc.

First of all not all LiPo's are created equal - you have good cells and bad cells on the market, just the same as with nickel cells.

Secondly, Lipo doesn't cater for the diversity of classes we have in electric - I'm thinking in particular of 4-cell 12th - and never will.

There is a place for both kinds of cell in the RC market. Sub-C Nickel cells will be around for many years to come (just like brushed motors will be). And will probably keep winning races too. And Lithium and brushless will also win races.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:25 AM   #99
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I will admit that the lipos are not costing me much time because I am an average driver. But there is no way the fast drivers who can extract every volt and milliamp out of car will switch until its proven there is a performance advantage of some kind.

I bought Trakpower 4900's that have a hard case.

I could see where everyone would switch if mains were exended to 10-12 mintues (which I'm all for by the way).
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:35 AM   #100
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Na, not a cheater, I understand why you're frustrated. Maybe you can further bend the rules by shedding a few ounces to make up for anything you feel like you're losing with voltage?

All but two of us locally run 13.5's in stock, with a combination of LiPo and NiMH (minimum weight rules in place), and if there's a big difference between the two, we're not really seeing it. I wonder if the voltage issue is more noticeable with brushed motors?

I have yet to hear someone with Orion Carbon`s say they don`t have power or punch .....

They always say they have plenty of both .....


and then I say to them ...

Told you so .....
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:44 AM   #101
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I like LIPO because they are cheaper, but there are many things that are negative. LIPOs are dangerous, look at the youtube videos of lipo fires. I use a lipo sack though and have piece of mind. There are no conventional sized lipos so people with split pack configurations are out of luck, although peak performance and maxamps make a saddle pack. I have a lipo saddle pack and it is just a bit too fat to fit in my 4WD well, but it fits with a bit of modification.

Now with the A123racing.com 3.3V lipos coming out makes me wonder if I should really wait adopting lipos fully. If no one yet knows, the A123 batteries are robust like nimh cells but requires a special CC-CV charging program that only their proprietary charger, or some FMA chargers can do. They can be overcharged, over-discharged, ran at 30C current rate continuous and they will not catch fire or explode. They are proprietary LI-nano-phosphate cells and will probably not be manufactured by Kokam or Orion.

Maybe there is a newer, safer, conventional sized cell that will be developed next year and then I am out of luck again, needing to buy yet another compatible charger.

All I know is that I use one LIPO cell per car for a full days racing. I can charge it the day before, and hit the track with confidence knowing my cars will be fast and ready to race. One LIPO battery per car is saving money. They last longer too, that is saving money. I have old tired nimh cells too and they are the last nimh I will own except for AA nimh cells for my radio.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:47 AM   #102
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But maybe thats why we are stuck where we are. There is no performance gain by switching to lipos under the current rules for weight and race length and there actually might be a slight penalty.

So until the rules are changed, most racers won't switch. And after my experience so far, I can't say I would blame them.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:51 AM   #103
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I like LIPO because they are cheaper, but there are many things that are negative. LIPOs are dangerous, look at the youtube videos of lipo fires. I use a lipo sack though and have piece of mind.
this is not meant as a flame (no pun intended)... but i would take a flame/fire over an exploding battery any day.

Case in Point: Seattle Indoor Raceway, March 2007. Steve Hickman's IB4200 were charging... when they EXPLODED! yes, exploded. no neglect on his part. the batteries were just sitting there, charging. then BLAMO!

check out youtube.. im sure they have exploding Nimhs there. there's always that famous picture here on rctech of a nimh casing EMBEDDED into a wall when it exploded.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:51 AM   #104
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With current weight rules in place, NiMH will probably have a home in sedans for a while. Head-to-head, at the same weight, a 7.4V LiPo will be at a disadvantage against a good 7.2V NiMH in racing where voltage means everything, like stock and 19T sedan.

The problem is, just about everywhere else, it doesn't matter. Off-road, especially mod doesn't care about voltage. Bashers don't care, they want run time and ease of use. And many sedan folks are finding ways to not be bothered by the voltage thing, because the ease of use and lack of maintenance makes it worth it.

My point is, maybe it's not right for you, yet. And by you, I'm not talking to anybody specifically, but rather everybody that's considering it.

LiPo won't solve the battery war, probably nothing will, but it should make it more tolerable, and offers a wonderful alternative for many people during this time of transition. The LiPo folks may never have it better than they do right now.
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:08 PM   #105
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But maybe thats why we are stuck where we are. There is no performance gain by switching to lipos under the current rules for weight and race length and there actually might be a slight penalty.

So until the rules are changed, most racers won't switch. And after my experience so far, I can't say I would blame them.
You're only talking about one segment of racing, though. And people in clubs bend the rules all the time (look at how the 13.5 has taken over) to sort out new classes. You could very well see people start running at a lower weight if they feel disadvantaged. Any they should when the time is right, the weight of LiPo is one of its better attributes, and why it revolutionized electric R/C planes and helicopters.

People are switching for the convenience, not the performance. The majority of racers in my club, at least, are casual, and don't mind losing a tiny bit of voltage for what they gain in return. I would say that a majority of people in R/C, even racers, are casual enough that they'll take convenience and longevity over a tiny bit of performance any day. And those few that don't, the "hardcore" racers, are probably getting their stuff for free anyway. Even if they don't want LiPo, who will be around to give (or sell) them batteries if nobody else is buying them?
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