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Old 12-04-2006, 02:41 AM   #46
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I don't really see the value in using cheaper, dangerous LiPo when there are safer options available. The newer Apple laptops, for example use a LiPo battery that's been greatly improved in regard to safety. Clearly it's possible to manufacture these cells to not catch fire.

If it doesn't already exist, I wish someone would create a safety rating chart (or something) to rate the different LiPo batteries based on a number of safety criteria. It would be a lot easier to require a certain amount of safety from LiPo cells rather than lumping them all together, and letting the cheap, old stuff give the entire thing a bad name.
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Old 12-04-2006, 02:45 AM   #47
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You know, I'd like to get a definitive answer on whether or not a 5V LiPo cell is truly being developed. That could be the killer cell for R/C racing.

First, you've only got one cell, so there's no more matching, or worries about balance or anything. The voltage game will still be around, though.

Second, you could potentially gain a lot of the benefits mentioned in 4 cell racing without the drawback of runtime wars. The increased capacity and reduced IR of LiPo could be key to making that work.

Third, it could usher in a new era of chassis balance and design. Would this obsolete the JRX-S design?

Fourth, it would work nicely in 1/12th. How sweet would BL/LiPo 1/12th be, seriously?

Okay, anything else? Am in wrong in thinking that a 5V LiPo cell would be totally cool?
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Old 12-04-2006, 07:57 AM   #48
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Lipo packs could be designed with port size differences so not to plug in wrong. And shielded so the wires cant make any connection on one side or the other. We could inforce charging in a lipo bag. But nomatter what Lipo takes alot of respect towards your packs and how you maintain them. I recommend seriously inspecting them closely. Before and after charging. As far as the smell of one after popping I hope we never smell one at our track. But I cant imagine it being worse than a run capcitor or motor or speedo. Pour some paragon on it that will work. And we have alot of lipos at our track.

.......No Offense Butt the smell was so bad you left? I hope your stuff is OK?
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Old 12-04-2006, 03:57 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying G.E.O.
What brand of lipo batt is it? Where there any signs before the batt exploded as a warning to us lipo users?
Has anyone come through with what brand this Battery was?

We have thousands of Batteries out there and Zero reports of any fire, torch or explosions Infact we have had only one customer manage to get one to burst and he said it just popped like a paper bag with out any heat spray or nothing just a puff of air. He also apparently was mischaring it using a non Li-Po charger while having it strapped into to his aluminum chassis.

Also the worries of shorting our batteries is a non issue as the plugs are situated as such they can only be accessed by the plugs as far as pluggin them in backwards there is a fuse on our PCB that will selfkill the pack if it is plugged in backwards and charged for a extended period of time, to eliminate further damage to the cells. Yes the pack is dead at that point but no swelling or risk of further damage. Most Chargers including our own will not charge a pack that is plugged in backwards preventing this issue.
Even if we made the plugs different sized people could and would plug them in backwards I have seen people plu in Tamiya plugs backwards and even solder on a Deans plug backwards causing short as well once they plugged it in. Nothing is full proof and consumers can be "talented" in the art of missuse.
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Old 12-04-2006, 05:11 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
If it doesn't already exist, I wish someone would create a safety rating chart (or something) to rate the different LiPo batteries based on a number of safety criteria. It would be a lot easier to require a certain amount of safety from LiPo cells rather than lumping them all together, and letting the cheap, old stuff give the entire thing a bad name.
Brilliant idea. Roar should be leading the way and setting safety criteria for LIPO cells to pass. Once passed, those cells should be allowed for Roar events. One problem is that some of the distributors are hiding the source of their lipos (for fear of competition maybe??). Peak/Orion is doing the right thing by listing Kokam as the manufacturer. I guess they are proud of the fact that they distribute one of the safest lipo cells on the market.

UL1642 is a good place to start for setting cell safety criteria. I'd like to see something more thorough like a nail penetration and crush test. Also, I find the short circuit test per UL1642 is pretty weak.
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Old 12-04-2006, 05:18 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
Also the worries of shorting our batteries is a non issue as the plugs are situated as such they can only be accessed by the plugs as far as pluggin them in backwards there is a fuse on our PCB that will selfkill the pack if it is plugged in backwards and charged for a extended period of time, to eliminate further damage to the cells.
Mr.Black - let me help the Orion marketing machine - The Kokam cells have a short circuit fuse built into the battery. If you short out the battery, the negative anode vaporizes and open circuits. I tried it and it works like a charm...every time.
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Old 12-04-2006, 05:25 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
You know, I'd like to get a definitive answer on whether or not a 5V LiPo cell is truly being developed.

Fourth, it would work nicely in 1/12th. How sweet would BL/LiPo 1/12th be, seriously?

Okay, anything else? Am in wrong in thinking that a 5V LiPo cell would be totally cool?
Well, A123 battery in Mass, is working on a smaller version of their extremely safe 26 dia x 70 mm cylindrical cell that is used in the high end dewalt power tools. They are rated at 3.3V but the big cells are about 2.6-2.8V under a 30 amp load. So with 2 cells in series, we could possibly have a 5.4V lithium ion cell sometime this year. They claim longer cycle life than the best lithium polymer.
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Old 12-04-2006, 08:18 PM   #53
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I see the simplest solution as this:

1) stop trying to get them legal to run with sub-c cells. If they are the future then let them stand on there own as there own class. LIPOS are not sub-c. If and when the masses dicatate they will eventually take over nihm it will only happen if they are run on there own... Same way touring car took over the pan car race scene back in the 90's, not buy forcing themselves into the pan car classes but by standing on there own in there own classes.

2)Brushless motors, if they are also the future then let them run as there own class.

3) Rules from most sanctioning bodies define what makes a battery and motor legal. A mod motor is not legal to run with stock motors and 6cells are not legal to run in 4cell classes. The particulars of what makes a motor or cell legal are in print and evolving as brushed and nihm technology advances.... Yes thats right that old stuff still is being advanced, new technology is not only lipo and brushless...... You don't bring a .21 engine to a 200mm nitro sedan race where .12 is the legal motor even though the .21 is vastly superior in every way. So why should lipo and brushless be legal to run with brushed and nihm? Rules are rules...

Im not on the lipo brushless band wagon, im a wait and see person, i saw guys jump on spectrum while all my fm channels became free for me to use i saw guys struggle with various issue with there spectrums..... Thats fine they did the beta testing and one day if i ever feel i need a spectrum im sure they will be as reliable as my current FM gear....

Im sure lipo at least will be the future and the same goes for brushless... But its not being 100% accepted for integration with rules, so make there own rules and run separate. The thing that bugs me so much is the marketing and hype for both of these products... Fast forward 5 years and all the claims of not needing to maintain them and no voodoo black magic chargers are needed like we use for nihm.. will be proven false as we have special lipo matchers and chargers, and software hacks for ESC and brushless motors, the idea of plug and play or set it and forget it are whats being rammed down our throats but im not buying it..... not now at least
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Old 12-04-2006, 11:35 PM   #54
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And someone on this thread said no one could hear us!
Thanks again Mr. Black I do respect your post, and I still have not one complaint of my 4800's.
And Joel no argument here, let the feather land where the wind blows it?
Some times it get's a little up drift and takes awhile but sooner or later the wind will have to quit blowing.
I for one plug the new stuff to get people back in. And to plug for the alternative these products offer the bugdet racer in an atempt to keep you in, or more importantly draw in new racers. I have heard alot of reasons for people quiting or not joining. But the #1 reason is budget. At our track were running B-Mains on tuesday night's and alot is due to our Facility letting us run with it. As for our track were growing and and getting bigger. It seems like it's getting shoved down your throte, But maybe it's just a class trying to be excepted.And to be excepted you 1st have to be heard. Anyway I'm not a wizard or anything dont take anything I post the wrong way. I'll look forward to reading you all later...........X
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Old 12-04-2006, 11:46 PM   #55
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Oh and linger you retired from working? or racing? If racing? Brushless lipo 13.5 rubber tire baby. Throw down. You can race for 10.00 a week for months. Just stay off the boards Parts have not gone down.
This summer were going to put lipo threw some dirt racing 4 wheel drive buggy testing. Right now were ripping up the carpet.
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Old 12-05-2006, 12:07 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
Has anyone come through with what brand this Battery was?
Maybe someone can make a list of available lipo batts for cars. AFAIK team orion and maxamp, trackpower matched are the only ones that offer lipo for cars.

btw, the balancer at the bottom of the page looks like its useable for orion lipo http://www.trakpower.com/
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Old 12-05-2006, 12:17 AM   #57
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The biggest problem with keeping brushless and LiPo in a separate class (at the club level) is that most clubs don't have enough turnout to support new classes, and we've got too many already. I think it's CRUCIAL to find a way to integrate the two as fairly as possible, otherwise you risk driving people away on both sides.

If you're just talking about clubs, let the 13.5 run in stock, the 4300 or 5800 in 19T, anything in mod, and let LiPo run in any 6 cell class so long as the car makes weight. There's no reason to keep them out, or try to force them into some special class. These things really ease the pain in racing, and putting people in a separate class will discourage them, and possibly drive them away entirely. Don't push people out that want to make R/C easier, your clubs aren't so competitive that it's going to make a difference. Forcing people into a separate class almost sounds like a stall tactic, because it's very discouraging to be separated from the other racers that refuse to come around.

For the big races, dedicated non-mod brushless classes sound like a great idea. How about dropping 19T one year, and replacing it with 10.5 (4300) brushless that allows LiPo, with reduced weight requirements. If people are truly interested in embracing new things and helping them along, the the competitive crowd that runs events needs to do their part.

Last edited by syndr0me; 12-05-2006 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 12-05-2006, 12:18 AM   #58
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Orion 3200 is as good as it get's for fit. And if it pops like a lunch sack. Sounds good. Our track is lipo heaven. We havent had any problems at all. And the ORIONS are all were running right down to the last pack.
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Old 12-05-2006, 12:34 AM   #59
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Is it just me or does it appear everyone is right on this debate? I have to go with Joel and Syndrome. But syndrome, at our track 4300 has become a breed of it's own. I think we should seperate the two but at the cost of loosing the other is a good perspective. It apppears we need to find a way to mix the two. But I think the result will still end in one of the other. We started letting 13.5 in with stock brush, and the push is that eveyone is buying up 13.5s faster than they can be put in the shelf. Rubber and foam. I have to say seperate, and let it find it's own way.

On a club level I think your right.
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Old 12-05-2006, 12:34 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UN4RACING
Oh and linger you retired from working? or racing? If racing? Brushless lipo 13.5 rubber tire baby. Throw down. You can race for 10.00 a week for months. Just stay off the boards Parts have not gone down.
This summer were going to put lipo threw some dirt racing 4 wheel drive buggy testing. Right now were ripping up the carpet.
linger's quite a good driver. I don't think he breaks much. He's retired cause he won too many times locally.

Last edited by Sydewynder; 12-05-2006 at 12:56 AM.
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