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Old 12-01-2006, 05:03 PM   #31
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Enough with the new $400+ sedan cars every 10 months. I understand that progress and evolution of design are a good thing, for the racers that are on a tight budget, it's got to be tough. People will say that "you don't need to by the latest and greatest thing out there". Let's be honest, the nature of the sport is to always try to get an advantage on the competition and to have "what's hot".

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Old 12-01-2006, 05:20 PM   #32
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You have 3 choices when it comes to the latest and greatest car...

1. Buy the new car because that's what your hobby shop is going to stock the parts for.

Or keep what you have and

2. Buy the parts online and hope you don't break....

3. Spend as much as you did for the origional kit and carry a stock of parts with you everywhere you go....
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Old 12-02-2006, 02:52 AM   #33
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As Darkside as stated expensive cars

over here in the Uk
we have 1/8th off-road buggy`s by xray xbr8, hong -nor ,hot bodies lightning 2 all going for the same price as the xray 007 TC or cheaper then cyclone or BD

Also there are 4 RTR kits by Hong-nor & Ho bao in the 1/8th Buggy`s again goign for 299.00
the BD`s cyclone`s are just a nats over 300.00, 007 is 280.00, yet the new T3 is goign to be over 300.00

when i take my 9 year old into the LHS & he`s clap`s he`s eyes on the buggys ,Electric ones don`t stand a chance (He has Xray 04 at the mo ,very good begginneers car ,why?? it`s strong & tunable ,& cheap to get secong hand

no wonder it`s hard for the youngesters & they think switching to 5 cell is going to help ,it will be only helping the ones that are allready racing at the top or just below
not bringing youngesters in
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Old 12-02-2006, 08:30 AM   #34
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ya, price is really a big big factor for newcommers, and i know because i am pretty new to rc and i only observe and i actually never race. most new people that join this hobby on the spur of the moment buy rtr kits almost all the time. rtr kits like the xxxs, tt-01s and tc3/4s and perhaps a stickpack or 2 with the cheapest duratrax charger. then they're told that people race on whatever day and so they check it out, only to see people with 007s, 415s with huge transmitters and enough equipment to take up almost all the room in a minivan, and they're left standing there with car and transmitter in hand, which they probably spent the same price you guys spend on an ice charger and a matched pack. people seriously need to step back from the hobby abit and be less serious about everything. what do most people do right after a race? go back to the pits and instantly sit down and tinker with the cars and mess with their batteries with furrowed brows. the type of ambiance is usually not too welcoming either. people seem to focus too much on setting up their car just to win and not spending enough time just enjoying the experience of racing and laughing it up. instead of spending all your pit time adjusting your suspension geometry, just let it be and go chat with the new guy or go watch the races and cheer for nice passes and the underdog.
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Old 12-02-2006, 08:32 AM   #35
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I got into this hobby in September. I bought one manufacturer's top of the line touring car for $340. It didn't take me long to realize this car had serious design faults. Every time I worked on it I had to work around or through these faults. Beyond my issues with the car itself, it quickly became obvious that this car wasn't the fastest. I didn't figure this out by driving it, I figured it out from observing the world of touring cars.

I sold it and bought a pair of T2'007's. A lot of you read that and think 'just another newbie throwing money at the latest and greatest to beat the veterans.' I know some of you are thinking that because of the replies in this thread and the other seven just like this one. But that isn't the reason. I bought the latest and greatest because, for just $60 more, I have a car that has been wonderfully designed. That's something I realize every time I work on the car. Easily worth $60.

Some of you think that a manufacturer releasing a better car at $400 is bad for this sport. Personally, I love it. I'm benefiting from it. I would benefit even more if every manufacturer came out with a car this good. And so would you. When is spending big money on a car bad? When you quickly realize the car isn't worth it. The 007 is worth it, for now.

When will it no longer be worth it? When something just as good is available for less money, or something better for the same. So where is the competition with the cars that are just as good for less money? That's the question you guys should be asking. Either it isn't possible to build a car just as good for less money, or they simply aren't doing it.

It isn't about spending the most money. It's about having the most fun. Building, working on, and driving a marvelously designed car is fun. Doing the same with a poorly designed car is not.

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Old 12-02-2006, 08:58 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJChar
ya, price is really a big big factor for newcommers, and i know because i am pretty new to rc and i only observe and i actually never race. most new people that join this hobby on the spur of the moment buy rtr kits almost all the time. rtr kits like the xxxs, tt-01s and tc3/4s and perhaps a stickpack or 2 with the cheapest duratrax charger. then they're told that people race on whatever day and so they check it out, only to see people with 007s, 415s with huge transmitters and enough equipment to take up almost all the room in a minivan, and they're left standing there with car and transmitter in hand, which they probably spent the same price you guys spend on an ice charger and a matched pack. people seriously need to step back from the hobby abit and be less serious about everything. what do most people do right after a race? go back to the pits and instantly sit down and tinker with the cars and mess with their batteries with furrowed brows. the type of ambiance is usually not too welcoming either. people seem to focus too much on setting up their car just to win and not spending enough time just enjoying the experience of racing and laughing it up. instead of spending all your pit time adjusting your suspension geometry, just let it be and go chat with the new guy or go watch the races and cheer for nice passes and the underdog.

This is an interesting post. I'm almost one of those guys that you think are bad for the hobby. Guess what: we are the hobby.

At my local track there are guys who spend lots of money and take the racing seriously. And there are guys who spend as little money as possible. The guys spending money and taking it seriously whoop the other guys. I come from 8 years of R/C airplane-based competition, and the same is true there.

I'm really starting to think that there are two types of people in this sport. Guys (I'll say people when I see a woman in this type) that are in this for the challenge of taming the universe in this one very esoteric manner, and people who are in this for fun. The two most obvious consequences of their motivation source are where they place, and how much money they spend. Dare I call them the sports-man and the hobbyist.

Maybe the first step to fixing this hobby/sport is realizing who currently likes touring cars (i.e. these two types). Maybe the second step is realizing that the hobbyist will never like touring cars, and if there's one doing it, it's because he/she just needs a little time to find something more fun (what's the average? 3 years?), at which time they disappear. Maybe the third step is realizing that the sports-men have zero interest in old and inferior cars. That would make condemning the release of new cars entirely backwards.

SSJ's post deals with attracting new people into touring cars. I'm thinking that hobbyists should be attracting other hobbyists, and sports-men should be attracting other sports-men. Personally, I was attracted by hobbyists, but I immediately saw through their 'it's a fun hobby' line to the exciting challenge of racing purpose-built machines with others like me.

-Adam
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Old 12-02-2006, 09:05 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamge
I got into this hobby in September. I bought one manufacturer's top of the line touring car for $340. It didn't take me long to realize this car had serious design faults. Every time I worked on it I had to work around or through these faults. Beyond my issues with the car itself, it quickly became obvious that this car wasn't the fastest. I didn't figure this out by driving it, I figured it out from observing the world of touring cars.

I sold it and bought a pair of T2'007's. A lot of you read that and think 'just another newbie throwing money at the latest and greatest to beat the veterans.' I know some of you are thinking that because of the replies in this thread and the other seven just like this one. But that isn't the reason. I bought the latest and greatest because, for just $60 more, I have a car that has been wonderfully designed. That's something I realize every time I work on the car. Easily worth $60.

Some of you think that a manufacturer releasing a better car at $400 is bad for this sport. Personally, I love it. I'm benefiting from it. I would benefit even more if every manufacturer came out with a car this good. And so would you. When is spending big money on a car bad? When you quickly realize the car isn't worth it. The 007 is worth it, for now.

When will it no longer be worth it? When something just as good is available for less money, or something better for the same. So where is the competition with the cars that are just as good for less money? That's the question you guys should be asking. Either it isn't possible to build a car just as good for less money, or they simply aren't doing it.

It isn't about spending the most money. It's about having the most fun. Building, working on, and driving a marvelously designed car is fun. Doing the same with a poorly designed car is not.

-Adam
see i can`t agree on that
difference between you & me is i`ve been in the hobby for over 10 years
now have my son harry 9 racing , he has a second proberly 3 rd 04 he brought with hes own birthday money , & what a gem it`s been ,now with all the crashing & bashing he has done this car allows him to finish races , last thing he wants is to stop halfway through (not finish) which was happening with the Tamiya TL-01 things just fell off it , hard to work on & it didn`t look like any of the other cars that other racers had at the club ,He wanted a racing car to look like the BD`s & 007`s of this world , but he got he`s 04 for 50.00 runs a dead slow p2k2 (on purpose) he goes round corners now

if you boy has the pick of a 1/8th buggy RTR Ho Bao or a 007 for 280.00

think the lad will go for the buggy ,it can be used evrey where
dad will be quids in aswell just got a buggy for same price as the 007 ,007 still wants all the electric stuff to go in

There`s no cheap GOOD electric cars out there for bigineers
except the new T2R when it arrives
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Old 12-02-2006, 10:40 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJChar
ya, price is really a big big factor for newcommers, and i know because i am pretty new to rc and i only observe and i actually never race. most new people that join this hobby on the spur of the moment buy rtr kits almost all the time. rtr kits like the xxxs, tt-01s and tc3/4s and perhaps a stickpack or 2 with the cheapest duratrax charger. then they're told that people race on whatever day and so they check it out, only to see people with 007s, 415s with huge transmitters and enough equipment to take up almost all the room in a minivan, and they're left standing there with car and transmitter in hand, which they probably spent the same price you guys spend on an ice charger and a matched pack. people seriously need to step back from the hobby abit and be less serious about everything. what do most people do right after a race? go back to the pits and instantly sit down and tinker with the cars and mess with their batteries with furrowed brows. the type of ambiance is usually not too welcoming either. people seem to focus too much on setting up their car just to win and not spending enough time just enjoying the experience of racing and laughing it up. instead of spending all your pit time adjusting your suspension geometry, just let it be and go chat with the new guy or go watch the races and cheer for nice passes and the underdog.

Whenever Newbies or people interested come to me and ask the first thing I tell them is I've been in this hobby since the 70's and I've had a lot of time to accumulate what I have. A lot of the kids ask me what I have and I always remind them that I'm using stuff that's older then they are as is half my cars...

I'm 2 generations behind on my TC and my 12th scale since I'm racing a FK05 and a plain old CRC 3.2, no "R".... The rest of my equipment is top of the line, but like I said, I've had time, I have the money and I enjoy racing myself.... Don't really care how I do compared to the others, I'm too busy looking at My own lap times and trying to be myself by that extra 10th of a second.... Do I have the money to go out and buy a 007, Yup.... And I decided to order a Gen-X (on backorder) and give my 3.2 to my 7 year old...
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:07 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by imjonah
The critical factor is the ratio of time racing / to the time working on the car.

What is needed is a car/class which meets the following basic criteria

1. The car can hit any track barrier at any angle or be hit by another car at any angle, at full speed and not be damaged. Whether this is done by slowing the car down, stregthening the bumpers/suspension or deploying softer materials for track barriers. Broken car = bad experiece

2. After the race the car can have the dust and grit blown off with a compressed air can, maybe a drop or two of lubricant applied and then put in a shoe box and not touched until the next race. No motor, chassis, tire, battery maintenace required week to week to remain competitve.

3. All the tools, gauges, and parts to make adjustments to the car included with the car and simple to use.


The industry (both manufactures and hobby stores) have to set aside their normal mind set; which is to see every car as an opportunity to sell replacement parts or hop up parts and have one class, one kind of car whose prupose is not to generate more revenue (short term) but whose purpose is to draw in and keep new customers generating revenue (long term).

---------------------------------------------------------

There are numerous things that could be tried with race organization or class re-orgznization but ultimately they are re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, unless the industry focuses on an entry level car which is highly durable, reliable and very very low maintainece.


This,although appealing to the consumer, has to be the most unrealistic post in this whole silly thread.
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Old 12-02-2006, 02:27 PM   #40
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I wanted to throw in my perspective as someone who was a virgin to TC and RC in general earlier this year. My first post was on 5.24.06!

Based on my experiences as someone who wanted to get into racing but didn't know the first thing about it I have found it beneficial to have a "coach" around the track or hobby shop. Someone knowledgeable and dedicated to answering questions and helping out new people. Someone to help with race etiquette, charging batteries and equipment and car setup advice and just generally show you the ropes. This could be a track or LHS employee or just one of the veteran racers. I seem to have been brought into the fold at the LHS/track by some of the vets but it was tough at first when I didn't know anybody and the paid help was scarce at times.

The biggest turnoffs I've personally found so far when it comes to equipment is the cost of buying and maintaining batteries and the cost of buying and maintaining motors. I think the answer to this is obvious. Hassle free batteries that are easy to charge, can be charged immediately after using, and a racer can go all race day with two packs and a newbie could possibly do it with just one. Throw in motors that perform the same run to run, week to week without having to buy all the motor maintenance equipment and finding a motor Yoda to teach you the ways. Yes, brushless and LiPo is the best way to minimize cost and maintenance for new comers in my opinion.

I personally don't think it's the $400 kits every 6 months are much of a problem. There will always be guys that have the budget to buy the latest and greatest equipment. These $400 dollar kits do not separate those that can afford them from the crowd 99% of the time. When these discussions come up how many times have you read "The fast guy at our club races a 1-2 year old car and spanks everyone running the latest and greatest". People would get board running the same old equipment if they couldn't buy new cutting edge equipment every once in a while anyway.

I do think that new kits like the T2R and Cyclone S are part of the answer however. These kits are very similar to their top of the line counterparts, are easily upgradeable and the LHS will usually stock lots of extras for at least one of these cars. These allow those with smaller budgets to use similar equipment to the big budget guys without feeling like their being held back by inferior equipment.
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Old 12-02-2006, 04:02 PM   #41
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When i started off-road i had second hand stuff ,cars,battery`s, cheapest radio gear ever acoms techniplus ,second hand tyre`s even ,used to fish through the bins after the Nationals to find tyre`s to use on other meets ,clubs & so on
had to have have scr1200`s when the top boy`s had 1700sce`s

used to get in the E`s & D`s in 4 wd & made a couple of A`s in 2wd @regional
used to borrow stuff for the meet aswell ,didn`t have enough money to fund it ,but i liked it so much i kept going ,if a speedo (nosram or Novak blow that be it for about month & bit before i could get another one )


i do think the newer generation of today expect to be good with out pratice & they believe spend spend spend is the answer to results & expect the wins to handed to them on a plate then when it doesn`t come ,they blame the rules & other stuff

the youngesters of today have no help what so ever to get in now , even the normal racers think that every one car controll a R/C car straight off

you should see the look on the faces of the top heat drivers when they marshall the first heat ( it`s like i never used to be that bad ,i was much better then that attitude when i started , why do they bother


i have very good first hand experience regarding this

No one in the racing fertinity new harry was my son , i took him to 3 of outside/inside club meets for him to get a feel for it
coz the drivers new who i was , but they didn`t know about Harry being with me
27t he was in)
And this was a eye opener in the scaryest way,pratice session opens up this was only 27/19t class`s no Mods were there
i`m standing there with another dad who has 2 sons (roughly same age as My son) same ability aswell, they are out there 4 cars going round together learning the track all 3 lads chuggling to them selves as they scrap paint of each other while going round
down the straight they go (remember just pratice) gets to the end BANG a car comes up the straight ,right through the lads cars(missed the 4th one)
gets a big moan of the rostrum by a TOP national A finalist) why didn`t you call slow car ,aiming at the 3 lads cars on the track

i thought that`s fine 1 mishap no probs i can deal with it ,top drivers car is broke )4 lads still loving it (there was a silent atmosphere around the boys ,as they thought it was there fault
looks at the other dad ,i asked does happen alot with you or is just bad timing ,he answered happens all the time ,we are new here i don`t think we will come back for a while
anyways harry goes out with 3 other lads down straaght (same thing bang blah blah ,this time the lads were in the way

while all this was going on the 2 TOP drivers Knew who i was as they came off the rostrum moaning to me why the hell are those cars on track ,blah blah
i ask which cars he pointed out Harrys car as it pulls up to my Feet , then the penny drops Harry is with me , Then both the TOP drivers changed there Tune about the situ, saying it wa sall right & started to back down in the statements , thus i don`t go back there with harry a very very Bad EXPERIENCE INDEED FOR HARRY, as for me it just confirms what i thought in the first place some of the TOP 27t/19t driver`s are very 2 faced & wouldn`t give you the time of day, let alone help newbies to get on & feel welcome ,quite a few TOP drivers have there head so far up there arse`s & thinking they are the Bees Knees, they don`t give a rats arse for the newbies

having a son who races at certain clubs that no one knows about gives you a good insight into how it really is (word soon spreads who my son is though, so now every one is quite nice towrds harry ) funny that

that experience above was about the same at 3 clubs i went to before i got figured harry was my son
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Old 12-02-2006, 05:17 PM   #42
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I agree with MrJolly. A big part of the problem is the faster guys being imature and complaining about the newbies, it creates a bad atmosfere that makes the beginner not want to comeback.

ANother big part of the problem, is when the beginners start racing and think that they will beat the more expirience racers just by trowing money at the cars and getting the most expenxive equipment, when they spend the money and they realize that they are still slower, they give up and quit, they need to know that the faster giys have been racing for years. This has to do with the mentality of Instant Satisfaction, but is also has to do with people telling beginners that they need this $400 charger, and that $300 radio and that $100 baterie.

The racing fraternity, as a whole, needs to do a better job of showing the newbs that they dont need the most expensive stuff right away, that they can buy little by little. But a decent radio for about $100, save up for a few months, then buy the nicer charger etc. All the while learning how to drive faster and getting expirience seting up their car.

I had a guy tell me once that if he bought (I race gas TC) that Novarossi engine that I had in my car and that better radio, he could compete. This was a small track where straightaway speed is not where you gain time, he didnt realized that he needed to know how to drive faster tru the turns to compete.
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Old 12-02-2006, 05:53 PM   #43
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Interesting that you post that. I've noticed from time to time that some people get prefered treatment especially when they are sponsered or just a good racer. Newcomers and young kids should not be harrassed to feel unwelcomed. That also deters them from wanting to come back. Some of these cars are very expensive, but the guys that own said cars should use a bit more common sense. A few months ago while I was practicing on the track at SoCal Raceway. A top notch racer decided to get on and practice. Well this guy drove into my car deliberately, or at least it sure seem like it. He broke my car and didn't apoligize or said anything about it. He acted as if nothing had happened. I was not to bothered until I was told who he was. Now I really felt that this was intentional because he could have easily drove a tight line as I am not that good of a driver. I don't expect a apology because it didn't come at the time. Sure don't expect it now. I've been told that he not only is a team driver, but he also owns a company that is very much R/C related. I don't know that I will buy his products again because of this. Just something that happened to me, but I bad apple isn't going to keep me away from this.
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Old 12-02-2006, 06:36 PM   #44
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Interesting that you post that. I've noticed from time to time that some people get prefered treatment especially when they are sponsered or just a good racer. Newcomers and young kids should not be harrassed to feel unwelcomed. That also deters them from wanting to come back. Some of these cars are very expensive, but the guys that own said cars should use a bit more common sense. A few months ago while I was practicing on the track at SoCal Raceway. A top notch racer decided to get on and practice. Well this guy drove into my car deliberately, or at least it sure seem like it. He broke my car and didn't apoligize or said anything about it. He acted as if nothing had happened. I was not to bothered until I was told who he was. Now I really felt that this was intentional because he could have easily drove a tight line as I am not that good of a driver. I don't expect a apology because it didn't come at the time. Sure don't expect it now. I've been told that he not only is a team driver, but he also owns a company that is very much R/C related. I don't know that I will buy his products again because of this. Just something that happened to me, but I bad apple isn't going to keep me away from this.

I'd have returned the favor and made sure to call his sponsors and tell them what a wonderful person they have as a spokeman and that yu intend to tell all your friends...

I come from a profession that you are held to a higher standard and expected to hold sourself better than the average person. If you want to be a sponsored driver you better be on your best behavior.
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Old 12-02-2006, 07:26 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamge
This is an interesting post. I'm almost one of those guys that you think are bad for the hobby. Guess what: we are the hobby.
-Adam
actually, you're different than what i was talking about. what you probably don't know is that we've met before(i was the one that marshalled for you 3 or 4 weeks ago) and even though that was the first time we talked, you were still really open and answered my questions about your brushless setup. i usually attend the later halfs of the races on saturday(except for today. i'm too tired to go out). most of the people in the club are really nice and helpful and the clubs structure is really good, where there is a novice class, then stock and mod, and then they do misc. classes if you can get 3 or more participants in it, so sarcar really caters to both classes of participants that you mentioned. alot of the participants are talkative and even though there still is abit of a secretive club feeling, its alot more open than what other people are describing and even though its winter and its pretty hard to get exposure, the club is doing really well considering its what, around a year old now? ive heard of some clubs nearly laughing people out of the hobby because they had an older or a cheaper chassis, or club members that would run your car into the wall even if you were new at racing because you were going too slow, and their reason? "if you can't keep up, don't race". like seriously, those people really need an additional hobby to blow off steam, like taking care of fish or something.
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