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Old 12-19-2006, 03:08 PM   #1321
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If mod is too fast, go 19t. If 19t too fast, go stock. If stock too fast, go Mabuchi. If Mabushi too fast, build a static model.
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:13 PM   #1322
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There is no benefit to going to 4-cells regardless
Just forget it. It was a question that is obviously not going to get answered here because apparently speed and equipment, not the quality of racing, are all that matters. Another time and place perhaps.

Sorry about calling you a jackass but I hate it when I or someone else posts a question and the responders are off in tangent land looking at their hobby with one pair of glasses. Good luck fighting your anti-4-cell with ROAR/IFMAR.
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:33 PM   #1323
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Thanks Carl. I chose to keep money in my pocket. How's the new job?
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:35 PM   #1324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edseb
If mod is too fast, go 19t. If 19t too fast, go stock. If stock too fast, go Mabuchi. If Mabushi too fast, build a static model.
FINALLY, that's what I've been saying.
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:37 PM   #1325
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Originally Posted by slcf1
Just forget it. It was a question that is obviously not going to get answered here because apparently speed and equipment, not the quality of racing, are all that matters. Another time and place perhaps.

Sorry about calling you a jackass but I hate it when I or someone else posts a question and the responders are off in tangent land looking at their hobby with one pair of glasses. Good luck fighting your anti-4-cell with ROAR/IFMAR.
The benefit of 4-cell is a short term fix, and not the problem. I was talking to Fred at Tamiya and he laughed at this too, said that people were dumping in 4-cell since they switched overseas.

The "quality of racing' will not improve, you still have skill gaps. Sure the D-Main drivers will not be as fast as the A-Main, but most races I go to within the main the drivers are pretty equal, that's why we qualify to shuffle.

Sure if we drove 1 mph all the cars would be super easy to control, and racing will be "closer" over all, but we don't watch "slow racing."

The idea behind 4-cell or even 5-cell further segments touring car racing from the RC market. It will reduce, even further attendance. Not immediately, but the beginner class (which is really missing) will be smaller and smaller because the kids buying RTRs that come 6-cell ready, stick pack ready, will not bother going to the track and having to "remove" cells or race against 4-cell designed cars (Which they will come).

I'm not arguing speed, but the fact that speed attracts, and in marketing (like many of the people here arguing for it *cough* Adrian), sell their kits that actually make them money based on speed to noobs. So I can't see it both ways...selling speed, then saying we need to slow down.


How about this....we make a Factory class where all these guys can run 4-cell 540s and they'll lead the way. Then we'll all follow. Topspeed of 15 mph, no breaking, and really close racing...see how that works. Or look at a track when the open mod guys run, and watch people gather.
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:40 PM   #1326
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
Here's the difference with a kart track. They make enough money on entry fees and pit passes, etc. to cover that kind of thing. Some tracks have unlimited family passes that allow you to practice on practice days, for $600 a year. Anybody in the pits, HAS TO HAVE A PIT PASS, at anywhere from $8-$15 a day and entry fees for clube events from $20-$60 a class. And they get to charge spectators too. We are NOT kart racing.

We hear on these very forums how guys gripe if their entry fees is more than $5... for a club race. And part of the reason there is conversation about running fewer cells is to make racing cheaper. Personally, I don't feel it could get much cheaper. Not when you compare it to other motorsports, and ways to get your kicks.

Not to mention how many classes there are. I found an entry form to some random kart race... 35 classes at a 2-day event... 35 CLASSES!!! Yea, let's be more like kart racing.

I'm sure there are those on here that are VERY Kart knowledgeable and could drop good information in. Chris from C&M Team Cobra was some kind of national champion shifter kart racer. That guy would have some insight for the sake of comparison, he's in both industries, RC and Karting.

Random kart racing flyer

.
Bob, I went to the local track and signed up for a rental and immediately was in the system. Paid $20 for a race (12 laps), just like the other 10 people there. That was sold to me as a value of racing and seeing where I was from the start.

Our hobbies are the same, we have 10 classes at a track, they have 35...which seems more than it should be.

But can I ask how much you paid for you current race software and timing system? Was there any real benefit to buying that other than having a value to attract racers? I'm sure the tracks that bought $5,000 AMB systems never directly recouped that, or the POINT of Sale system you use, you can't charge people for it but you bought it.
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:44 PM   #1327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slcf1
Just forget it. It was a question that is obviously not going to get answered here because apparently speed and equipment, not the quality of racing, are all that matters. Another time and place perhaps.

Sorry about calling you a jackass but I hate it when I or someone else posts a question and the responders are off in tangent land looking at their hobby with one pair of glasses. Good luck fighting your anti-4-cell with ROAR/IFMAR.
Actually, I did answer your question. You wanted to know about slower, closer racing and TCS IS slower closer racing and I like it. I know you think going to fewer cells will slow things down but it won't. People will ALWAYS continue to push and cars will be just as fast but won't be able to run as long. So going to 4-5 cell accomplishes a few things.

1. Less runtime so that TCs won't be able to go to longer races like 1/12th scale has.
2. It keeps LIPO batteries out of the equation for a while to help the current battery manufacturers.
3. It will force a Hobby wide reengineering of all TC chassis pushing all the used stuff out the door and making it less affordable for most.

Other than that, nothing. I'm all for slowing racing down but do it with motor and/or gearing rules. Something that won't cost the hobbyist out the wazoo and obsolete the equipment they already have.
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Old 12-19-2006, 07:38 PM   #1328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Bob, I went to the local track and signed up for a rental and immediately was in the system. Paid $20 for a race (12 laps), just like the other 10 people there. That was sold to me as a value of racing and seeing where I was from the start.

Our hobbies are the same, we have 10 classes at a track, they have 35...which seems more than it should be.
Race we went to last weekend had 4 classes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
But can I ask how much you paid for you current race software and timing system? Was there any real benefit to buying that other than having a value to attract racers? I'm sure the tracks that bought $5,000 AMB systems never directly recouped that, or the POINT of Sale system you use, you can't charge people for it but you bought it.
Didn't buy it to attract racers, bought it to fill a need. We needed laps counted, and everybody was on board with that idea. Having good software with small clubs also causes less of a burden to the racers. Don't need somebody to sit there and monitor the computer, that person can hit the button and then go help marshal. That's a big plus to a small group.

I also re-couped the value of my personal transponders the very first day I didn't have to stand at the drivers stand 10-15 times asking around for the guy that was supposed to have the transponder I needed. Don't have the cash, new guy? No problem we have club transponders.

New guy? Been in the club a while, but already know your typically the 8th place guy out of 10? We now need $5000 to let you know that you are officially ranked 28,719th in the country... Thank us for that information later. Oh yea, we need your $20 to on that, by the way... That "insightful", and valuable piece of information didn't come free...

I'm sure it's a good idea on some level, but I haven't seen it demonstrated yet, nor can I see around the potential problems with it. What is the value to Joe club racer to know he was ranked 28,000th and within a year, he had made a big improvement and was ranked 26,210th?
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Old 12-19-2006, 07:56 PM   #1329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
Race we went to last weekend had 4 classes.



Didn't buy it to attract racers, bought it to fill a need. We needed laps counted, and everybody was on board with that idea. Having good software with small clubs also causes less of a burden to the racers. Don't need somebody to sit there and monitor the computer, that person can hit the button and then go help marshal. That's a big plus to a small group.

I also re-couped the value of my personal transponders the very first day I didn't have to stand at the drivers stand 10-15 times asking around for the guy that was supposed to have the transponder I needed. Don't have the cash, new guy? No problem we have club transponders.

New guy? Been in the club a while, but already know your typically the 8th place guy out of 10? We now need $5000 to let you know that you are officially ranked 28,719th in the country... Thank us for that information later. Oh yea, we need your $20 to on that, by the way... That "insightful", and valuable piece of information didn't come free...

I'm sure it's a good idea on some level, but I haven't seen it demonstrated yet, nor can I see around the potential problems with it. What is the value to Joe club racer to know he was ranked 28,000th and within a year, he had made a big improvement and was ranked 26,210th?
Sorry but part of what is missing is that there is not goals to be reach. Why you have to enter Amateur and move up in other sports. Set a goal and allow people to reach them...it's a retention thing. How do we separate pros from novice...it's set in stages.

It unifies the hobby on something that can be sold to consumers, both new and old. It kept me spending money at the Kart track, which really is the entire point of racing...keeping people in the hobby spending money.

There is no cost yet, since nobody has asked how much it cost to have, but instead of thinking of ways to have people ranked it's in use already.

After every race I got my laptimes, how I faired in the race, the ranking of the day at the track, and across the country.

So it's a step toward actually having "organized racing" with a purpose and reward other than some $4 trophy. Same reason why you pay to play video games on line and other sports to see where you rank in the country.
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Old 12-19-2006, 07:58 PM   #1330
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A little addition to my last post is that it allow ROAR to have something to offer other than a set of rules.

You now can travel to other tracks and race people, and have it count for something.
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:52 PM   #1331
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OK guys, let's get off the crap about RTR cars and them not being able to race.

These ship with 6-cells now because that is what is the most common configuration. If the rules are changed and the common configuration is 4 or 5 cells, that is what they will ship with.

Even if an RTR shows up, they most likely can't race in stock. Most of these cars come with a 19 turn or other non-stock motor. So these guys are buying equipment anyway.


Debate the benefits (or lack of) changing the numbers of cells, not how we don't want to change. I've seen just a few posts where people have actually tried it and we've seen some very interesting results. I'll agree with Stormer that we need additional testing before we have any hard facts.

I've come to the conclusion that some changes are needed to bring the R/C racing hobby back to life. TC has been hit the hardest, but all forms of racing have been shrinking. It isn't the hardcore racers like us who will bring it back, it will be the new racers.
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Old 12-19-2006, 09:10 PM   #1332
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Funny, after 45 pages of going back and forth on this battery debate, only a few have noticed the one constant about this argument. No matter how many cells are proposed to be decreased, everyone is gearing up the cars to go the same speeds as they currently run now. So what is the purpose of dropping cells to slow the cars down if racers are going to gear up to maintain speeds of running 6 cells?
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Old 12-19-2006, 09:21 PM   #1333
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Originally Posted by JLock
Funny, after 45 pages of going back and forth on this battery debate, only a few have noticed the one constant about this argument. No matter how many cells are proposed to be decreased, everyone is gearing up the cars to go the same speeds as they currently run now. So what is the purpose of dropping cells to slow the cars down if racers are going to gear up to maintain speeds of running 6 cells?
-Lock fixed this thread with one post. Take away volts and EVERYONE will gear up to get a speed advantage on the next guy. Gearing up will load the motor (more amps drawn) harder with the 5 cell setup than with the 6cells you started with. ie, burnt batteries, burnt motors, burnt speedos. Why not limit motor winds AND gear ratios? As a test put the smallest pinion and largest spur on your car and watch your equipment temps drop dramatically. TC racing CAN NOT be fixed by juggling cell #s. The only way to fix this is motor wind limits and gear limits...........
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Old 12-19-2006, 09:43 PM   #1334
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Originally Posted by gotpez
OK guys, let's get off the crap about RTR cars and them not being able to race.

These ship with 6-cells now because that is what is the most common configuration. If the rules are changed and the common configuration is 4 or 5 cells, that is what they will ship with.

Even if an RTR shows up, they most likely can't race in stock. Most of these cars come with a 19 turn or other non-stock motor. So these guys are buying equipment anyway.


Debate the benefits (or lack of) changing the numbers of cells, not how we don't want to change. I've seen just a few posts where people have actually tried it and we've seen some very interesting results. I'll agree with Stormer that we need additional testing before we have any hard facts.

I've come to the conclusion that some changes are needed to bring the R/C racing hobby back to life. TC has been hit the hardest, but all forms of racing have been shrinking. It isn't the hardcore racers like us who will bring it back, it will be the new racers.
You're right, RTRs would have fewer cells, limiting runtime when the guy who bought it takes it to the street or parking lot. When he can run it for 5-6 minutes and the batteries are dead...he'll eventually get tired of it. Great for the hobby I'm sure. Lowers sales overall and doesn't peak peoples interest in racing. We need more runtime (longer races), perhaps a slower class for beginners and cars have to be fast since that's the initial draw "How fast does it go?". People need to be drawn to the hobby not 'bored' out of it.
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Old 12-19-2006, 09:52 PM   #1335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLock
Funny, after 45 pages of going back and forth on this battery debate, only a few have noticed the one constant about this argument. No matter how many cells are proposed to be decreased, everyone is gearing up the cars to go the same speeds as they currently run now. So what is the purpose of dropping cells to slow the cars down if racers are going to gear up to maintain speeds of running 6 cells?
My personal opinion on why is to put a bandaid on the few Mod racers who are blowing their stuff up now and to help the battery companies and matchers out by pushing Lipo even further away. The only reason I've actually heard 'someone' say was they were looking at it to slow classes down and to keep Mod racers from destroying gear and we ALL should know that people would just change gearing and go just as fast (or close) but now put more strain on batteries to go along with the motor and ESC. Japan will be back up to 5-6 cells within a couple years. Who knows about Europe, 5-cell might be something they're willing to live with. I personally would hate it but who knows. We'll see which side of the arguement wins in the end. I say, just keep it at 6, make LIPO legal and let people race.
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