ROAR to 4 cell....
12-18-2006, 01:23 PM
#1306
Tech Master
iTrader: (1)
Not to change subject - I just saw the article on the 24 Hour R/C Race...lol.. We did that back in 1994 in Lexington Kentucky and the team I was on won by over 1,000 laps. In total, we ran 454 miles! I'll try to find the old magazine and trophy from it....lol.... I guess we should have called Guinness back then!!
12-18-2006, 01:48 PM
#1307
Originally Posted by OldNSlow2
isn't the idea to slow down a little? Both you and Josh have tested and commented that it is almost as fast or could be as fast yet the idea when this whole thing started was to slow things down a little. Why do you keep trying to go as fast as 6 cells if the idea is to go a little slower.
And the 5 cell stuff I tested (and for all I know I did it wrong, i'm just one guy) seemed harder on equipment than simply running 6 cell did on a bigger track. and even on a small track, it seemed dumping was easier, but the power seemed more suited to a smaller track if you had to pick one or the other. It's possible that because the car is slower, you stay on the throttle longer, and get back on it sooner, with less coasting into corners, combined with a lower turn arm to get the speed up where you want it, uses more battery. Botta-boom-botta-bing, ...you dump easier...
I've never missed the gearing so bad that I dumped with mod on 3800's in 6 cell. I am however dumping on 5 cells with 4200's, wasn't on 6 cell 4200's.
Friend of mine brought his son to the 2-day event, noob kid in stock touring, cutting 33-40 second laps... crash...crash...noob stuff. Good stock times were 12.9-13.0. I told him to pull that stupid 6-cell pack out, gear up like 1 tooth and run some old 4 cell packs in the car. I loaned him some 4 cell packs and the kids lap times dropped from 35 second average to 25 second average... PERFECT!!!! and car survived. Only problem was he occaisionally got punted on the straight from a faster noob driver running him over. Had everybody run 4-cell in that heat, it would have been perfect.
It's not that mod needs to be slowed down, we need to look at better entry and mid level class ideas.
Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 12-18-2006 at 02:11 PM.
12-18-2006, 02:43 PM
#1308
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
My whole thing all along is that there really is no class seperation. Mod should be the fastest, and the one class that maybe should be left, as the benchmark. The problem is that stock related classes and 19turn are what is to fast. A rookie, noob has no business with a stock motor, it's jut gonna tear stuff up. Stock is about 3 laps back from the fastest mod times on larger carpet tracks. Should be like 6 - 8 laps back.
And the 5 cell stuff I tested (and for all I know I did it wrong, i'm just one guy) seemed harder on equipment than simply running 6 cell did on a bigger track. and even on a small track, it seemed dumping was easier, but the power seemed more suited to a smaller track if you had to pick one or the other. It's possible that because the car is slower, you stay on the throttle longer, and get back on it sooner, with less coasting into corners, combined with a lower turn arm to get the speed up where you want it, uses more battery. Botta-boom-botta-bing, ...you dump easier...
I've never missed the gearing so bad that I dumped with mod on 3800's in 6 cell. I am however dumping on 5 cells with 4200's, wasn't on 6 cell 4200's.
Friend of mine brought his son to the 2-day event, noob kid in stock touring, cutting 33-40 second laps... crash...crash...noob stuff. Good stock times were 12.9-13.0. I told him to pull that stupid 6-cell pack out, gear up like 1 tooth and run some old 4 cell packs in the car. I loaned him some 4 cell packs and the kids lap times dropped from 35 second average to 25 second average... PERFECT!!!! and car survived. Only problem was he occaisionally got punted on the straight from a faster noob driver running him over. Had everybody run 4-cell in that heat, it would have been perfect.
It's not that mod needs to be slowed down, we need to look at better entry and mid level class ideas.
And the 5 cell stuff I tested (and for all I know I did it wrong, i'm just one guy) seemed harder on equipment than simply running 6 cell did on a bigger track. and even on a small track, it seemed dumping was easier, but the power seemed more suited to a smaller track if you had to pick one or the other. It's possible that because the car is slower, you stay on the throttle longer, and get back on it sooner, with less coasting into corners, combined with a lower turn arm to get the speed up where you want it, uses more battery. Botta-boom-botta-bing, ...you dump easier...
I've never missed the gearing so bad that I dumped with mod on 3800's in 6 cell. I am however dumping on 5 cells with 4200's, wasn't on 6 cell 4200's.
Friend of mine brought his son to the 2-day event, noob kid in stock touring, cutting 33-40 second laps... crash...crash...noob stuff. Good stock times were 12.9-13.0. I told him to pull that stupid 6-cell pack out, gear up like 1 tooth and run some old 4 cell packs in the car. I loaned him some 4 cell packs and the kids lap times dropped from 35 second average to 25 second average... PERFECT!!!! and car survived. Only problem was he occaisionally got punted on the straight from a faster noob driver running him over. Had everybody run 4-cell in that heat, it would have been perfect.
It's not that mod needs to be slowed down, we need to look at better entry and mid level class ideas.
12-18-2006, 03:48 PM
#1309
Originally Posted by DerekB
Everything in the world is "for profit" the software that tracks use now is "for profit." Investing in a system that will bring people in to the hobby is worth a couple of grand. Transponder systems are 5K, this is a business and investing in your business is the best thing you can do. Obviously, if anybody moves forward with that systems a group buy will help reduce the costs, but ANYTHiNG will cost some cash, and anything that is worth it's weight is worth a little more.
12-18-2006, 05:34 PM
#1310
Originally Posted by robk
Ok Derek, relax. I'm just saying they are not giving this away. Most track operators i have known have a problem spending money on anything. The ones who didn't mind had deep pockets, and that is rare. We don't need to get into a discussion on the economics of track operations, but the investment on a scoring system is usually very significant to most of these guys. Now add another 5k (or more, do you have any ideas on the costs?) and these guys are not going to be willing to add this to the program.
Go Kart tracks are much like RC, so if they can do it, we can. We can't worry about every person or track to say if a track can participate. Most tracks aren't ROAR anyway.
12-18-2006, 06:59 PM
#1311
[QUOTE=OldNSlow2]
Now, I had stayed out of this arguement since it was going nowhere but you keep dragging me back in. That's Oval not TCs by the way. From what I've seen it's a WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD. No breaks or a lot less than TCs to add heat to a motor. Also, Oval isn't all that popular here. Don't get me wrong, there is a turnout but from what I've heard from folks at the track who've been there a long time...it's almost dead and going to 4-cells helped with that. How about some TC data? Got any other then heresay? 4-cell will slow the cars down until people get the gearing figured out to get them just as fast as they were and now they will be destroying batteries alongside the ESCs and Motors. You dump a pack a few times and it's pretty much worthless and it would happen more. Great way to save racers money too. The entire debate is pointless. ROAR can make the change, lose LOTS of racers who aren't made of money and watch it all die if they want or they can find a way to make changes that doesn't force a Hobby wide change and possibly help bring in new people. It seems to me that ROAR is more about catering to the Pro/sponsored guys than the club racers anyway. It's the same things I've been saying all along but there seem to be a few people who always seem to think that everything will stay the same just with fewer cells. Anyone who knows anything about marketing and business knows that's not the case. Hobby wide changes to chassis design would be the first thing putting racers on a budget even farther behind. How many people are still using Tamiya TA04s or even Traxxas 4-tecs that require 6-cell stick packs would now not even be able to race? I know, that stuff isn't top shelf but it will run and with proper tuning and a good driver can even compete. Not everybody is racing Xrays or Corallys and buying the newest model every 6 months. Many people are using outdated chassis because they have no other choice and you'd push them right out of the hobby. Great plan...who needs them anyway.
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
Kevin -
Compared with a few years ago we are going so much faster than in the past. We can reduce the power source in the cars thus reducing the heat and force that is destroying electronics as well as the suspension parts themselves (wear and tear and impacts).....
I always use example so many have seen this this but for muahdib4 here's a little real world data:
Akron, Ohio 1998 ROAR Carpet Oval Nats:
TQ 63 Laps 4:03 w/6-cell
Akron, Ohio 2002 ROAR Carpet Oval Nats:
TQ 62 Laps 4:00 w/4-cell
In 2006, I believe the track record is around 68+ laps with 4 cells!!! This is the advancement of technology. Deny it if you guys want but it's right in front of our faces. It only took 4 years to match the speeds from 4-6 cell. Now, 4 years later look at where it is... It's only going to continue...."
I guess I was under the impression that at least Josh was trying to slow the cars down. Come on guys, we kill for batteries that are 1.249 rather then 1.242, isn't that more power? Yet we are saying you can reduce voltage by as much as 1.249 total and not go slower...please!
Compared with a few years ago we are going so much faster than in the past. We can reduce the power source in the cars thus reducing the heat and force that is destroying electronics as well as the suspension parts themselves (wear and tear and impacts).....
I always use example so many have seen this this but for muahdib4 here's a little real world data:
Akron, Ohio 1998 ROAR Carpet Oval Nats:
TQ 63 Laps 4:03 w/6-cell
Akron, Ohio 2002 ROAR Carpet Oval Nats:
TQ 62 Laps 4:00 w/4-cell
In 2006, I believe the track record is around 68+ laps with 4 cells!!! This is the advancement of technology. Deny it if you guys want but it's right in front of our faces. It only took 4 years to match the speeds from 4-6 cell. Now, 4 years later look at where it is... It's only going to continue...."
I guess I was under the impression that at least Josh was trying to slow the cars down. Come on guys, we kill for batteries that are 1.249 rather then 1.242, isn't that more power? Yet we are saying you can reduce voltage by as much as 1.249 total and not go slower...please!
12-18-2006, 07:46 PM
#1312
I'm curious what everyone here thinks of slowing the cars down to have closer racing?
The arguments posted are mostly about equipment and manufacturers but I would suggest slowing things down to have close racing. Of course I realize that the words "slowing down" send most if not all racers into a tailspin. Most racers would benefit from having more time to react. Speed is cool but to me not as cool as good battles and side by side racing. I get a total rush from tight racing. Much more than destroying the field or having the fastest car.
Just a thought.
The arguments posted are mostly about equipment and manufacturers but I would suggest slowing things down to have close racing. Of course I realize that the words "slowing down" send most if not all racers into a tailspin. Most racers would benefit from having more time to react. Speed is cool but to me not as cool as good battles and side by side racing. I get a total rush from tight racing. Much more than destroying the field or having the fastest car.
Just a thought.
12-18-2006, 09:15 PM
#1313
Originally Posted by slcf1
I'm curious what everyone here thinks of slowing the cars down to have closer racing?
The arguments posted are mostly about equipment and manufacturers but I would suggest slowing things down to have close racing. Of course I realize that the words "slowing down" send most if not all racers into a tailspin. Most racers would benefit from having more time to react. Speed is cool but to me not as cool as good battles and side by side racing. I get a total rush from tight racing. Much more than destroying the field or having the fastest car.
Just a thought.
The arguments posted are mostly about equipment and manufacturers but I would suggest slowing things down to have close racing. Of course I realize that the words "slowing down" send most if not all racers into a tailspin. Most racers would benefit from having more time to react. Speed is cool but to me not as cool as good battles and side by side racing. I get a total rush from tight racing. Much more than destroying the field or having the fastest car.
Just a thought.
12-19-2006, 01:08 PM
#1315
Side by side racing...it's called TCS. Spec chassis, spec motors, spec tires, few hopups, realistic battery limits. It's all driver. It's the Miata MX-5 cup of the RC World
My question is not about equipment. It's about the effect of slowing the overall speed. Yes, the equipment is being changed but I'm talking about a benefit of the change. It happens in real racing every year. They do something to slow the cars down in the name of "safety", which is probably true to some degree. And the teams and drivers freak out exactly like what I've read in this forum. But I think the promoters and television audiences would like to see a close finish. So I'm wondering if one benefit of running 4 cell would be tighter racing and narrowing the gap from 1st to last place.
Since you, "the ultimate newbie", brought it up... If you really think about it ROAR and IFMAR is spec racing right down to "approved" armatures and "approved" bodies. Does anyone get to race a 5 stack armature..? That would be illegal. So everyone has more or less the same gear Mr. Miata Cup. So what's the difference... it's all driver.
12-19-2006, 01:14 PM
#1316
Originally Posted by slcf1
You're a jackass. And like all useless post'ers, you didn't answer the question.
My question is not about equipment. It's about the effect of slowing the overall speed. Yes, the equipment is being changed but I'm talking about a benefit of the change. It happens in real racing every year. They do something to slow the cars down in the name of "safety", which is probably true to some degree. And the teams and drivers freak out exactly like what I've read in this forum. But I think the promoters and television audiences would like to see a close finish. So I'm wondering if one benefit of running 4 cell would be tighter racing and narrowing the gap from 1st to last place.
Since you, "the ultimate newbie", brought it up... If you really think about it ROAR and IFMAR is spec racing right down to "approved" armatures and "approved" bodies. Does anyone get to race a 5 stack armature..? That would be illegal. So everyone has more or less the same gear Mr. Miata Cup. So what's the difference... it's all driver.
My question is not about equipment. It's about the effect of slowing the overall speed. Yes, the equipment is being changed but I'm talking about a benefit of the change. It happens in real racing every year. They do something to slow the cars down in the name of "safety", which is probably true to some degree. And the teams and drivers freak out exactly like what I've read in this forum. But I think the promoters and television audiences would like to see a close finish. So I'm wondering if one benefit of running 4 cell would be tighter racing and narrowing the gap from 1st to last place.
Since you, "the ultimate newbie", brought it up... If you really think about it ROAR and IFMAR is spec racing right down to "approved" armatures and "approved" bodies. Does anyone get to race a 5 stack armature..? That would be illegal. So everyone has more or less the same gear Mr. Miata Cup. So what's the difference... it's all driver.
NASCAR and other forms of racing don't have multiple mains, what you are watching at a real race is the A-MAin.
Every race I've been to the people in the D-Main are about the same speed.
12-19-2006, 01:38 PM
#1318
Originally Posted by DerekB
In terms of doing business, investing in something even if it was 5K, isn't that much. If we want to get things going for a real ranking system, the time spent to do it by hand, is much more than the cost of investing in something that already has it running.
Go Kart tracks are much like RC, so if they can do it, we can. We can't worry about every person or track to say if a track can participate. Most tracks aren't ROAR anyway.
Go Kart tracks are much like RC, so if they can do it, we can. We can't worry about every person or track to say if a track can participate. Most tracks aren't ROAR anyway.
We hear on these very forums how guys gripe if their entry fees is more than $5... for a club race. And part of the reason there is conversation about running fewer cells is to make racing cheaper. Personally, I don't feel it could get much cheaper. Not when you compare it to other motorsports, and ways to get your kicks.
Not to mention how many classes there are. I found an entry form to some random kart race... 35 classes at a 2-day event... 35 CLASSES!!! Yea, let's be more like kart racing.
I'm sure there are those on here that are VERY Kart knowledgeable and could drop good information in. Chris from C&M Team Cobra was some kind of national champion shifter kart racer. That guy would have some insight for the sake of comparison, he's in both industries, RC and Karting.
Random kart racing flyer
.
12-19-2006, 01:42 PM
#1319
Originally Posted by slcf1
You're a jackass. And like all useless post'ers, you didn't answer the question.
My question is not about equipment. It's about the effect of slowing the overall speed. Yes, the equipment is being changed but I'm talking about a benefit of the change. It happens in real racing every year. They do something to slow the cars down in the name of "safety", which is probably true to some degree. And the teams and drivers freak out exactly like what I've read in this forum. But I think the promoters and television audiences would like to see a close finish. So I'm wondering if one benefit of running 4 cell would be tighter racing and narrowing the gap from 1st to last place.
Since you, "the ultimate newbie", brought it up... If you really think about it ROAR and IFMAR is spec racing right down to "approved" armatures and "approved" bodies. Does anyone get to race a 5 stack armature..? That would be illegal. So everyone has more or less the same gear Mr. Miata Cup. So what's the difference... it's all driver.
My question is not about equipment. It's about the effect of slowing the overall speed. Yes, the equipment is being changed but I'm talking about a benefit of the change. It happens in real racing every year. They do something to slow the cars down in the name of "safety", which is probably true to some degree. And the teams and drivers freak out exactly like what I've read in this forum. But I think the promoters and television audiences would like to see a close finish. So I'm wondering if one benefit of running 4 cell would be tighter racing and narrowing the gap from 1st to last place.
Since you, "the ultimate newbie", brought it up... If you really think about it ROAR and IFMAR is spec racing right down to "approved" armatures and "approved" bodies. Does anyone get to race a 5 stack armature..? That would be illegal. So everyone has more or less the same gear Mr. Miata Cup. So what's the difference... it's all driver.
ROAR and IFMAR are NOT spec racing. You can race any motor that fits in the class. Not everyone in ANY class run the exact same motors and if you think some motors aren't faster and they're all exactly the same then apparently you don't know everything you think you do. You also don't race Spec Chassis, an Xray or Corally can race side by side with a Traxxas 4-tec. Not really the same performance there. You can race ANY body but nobody does and I think you should know that some bodies perform better than others, you did know that didn't you? You can gear any way you want and are only limited by what your equipment can handle (TCS Mini you are restricted on gearing). So ROAR and IFMAR have "some" specs but are not true spec racing.
"Real" racing slow things down to save lives...true. RC cars are not going to kill anyone. If people can't handle the speed then slow yourself down. I haven't seen NASCAR drop from 8-cylinder engines to 4-cylinder engines though. A restrictor plate isn't the same thing especially since they don't require them at every track. F1 dropped the engines down to 8-cylinders instead of 10 but still not down to 4-5 cylinders and if you think F1 is close racing...watch a few more races. The top drivers with top cars still lap most of the field several times. A few guys race close but not ONCE will you find the entire field finish on the same lap. Don't knock the Miata Cup, it IS Spec racing. Stock Motors in stock cars with VERY limited changes allowed. Watch a Miata Cup race and you'll see REAL racing.
12-19-2006, 01:53 PM
#1320
I'd like to see somebody that's seriously anal about their batterys and runs on the track, do some of the runs I did. When I'm racing, if I'm not dumping, I do not care one iota about what's left in the pack, nor do I keep track of it.
If I'm not dumping and I'm running up front, I'm not worried about it. I keep better track of this kind of thing in 1/12, but haven't done much there lately either. Batterys ain't dumping, I'm not keeping track. Life is easier.
We need like 10 or so national champion caliber guys to run about 20-30 packs over 4-5 race days to give up an opinion.
How are the EFRA guys doing on 5 cell? I kind of dropped out of touch on that thread over there. Anders was kind of hogging the thread...
If I'm not dumping and I'm running up front, I'm not worried about it. I keep better track of this kind of thing in 1/12, but haven't done much there lately either. Batterys ain't dumping, I'm not keeping track. Life is easier.
We need like 10 or so national champion caliber guys to run about 20-30 packs over 4-5 race days to give up an opinion.
How are the EFRA guys doing on 5 cell? I kind of dropped out of touch on that thread over there. Anders was kind of hogging the thread...
Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 12-19-2006 at 02:03 PM.