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Old 12-13-2006, 02:10 PM   #1246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McSmooth
If you're the one that wants hard data to back up any request for a change, be careful by saying "most" disagree with reducing the cell count. You can't have it both ways.

Have someone set up a poll on here instead. Don't make an assumption that "most" agree with you.
Uh...have you even read the entire thread? Seems most people do agree and ALL the ones at the local track here agree. I can have it both ways...most can disagree with changing the cells (and do) and if he's going to say that you don't lose anything by dropping a cell or two then he needs to back up that statement with facts. It's really pretty simple...I have a chart.
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:18 PM   #1247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
I believe F1 has reduced fuel... I remember the special bio suits the fuel guys would wear...lol... I also think they've reduced engine sizes.... NASCAR has restrictor plates, compression ratios that have changed.....
Don´t forget the grooved tires in F1. Smaller engines....
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:20 PM   #1248
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
I agree with you 100% on the paid racers being out of stock.
That doesn't effect anything for 99.9% of the club racers in North America. This would effect a few people that intend to run at the larger events. Most people griping about stock are NOT attending the larger events where "paid" racers are.

Most club racers never leave their home track, and of that goup, how many might attend a race they have to fly to?

At a bigger event, I'd like a shot at the better racers, that's why people go.

If you are fortunate enough to be in the .01% of club racers and have a guy in your club getting paid to race, you are one lucky person. You get to test yourself against, and ask questions of one of the best drivers in North America on a weekly bassis.

Josh how many "PAID" racers do you think are in stock? "paid", not get stuff for free now and then. "get a check" to run stock motors.
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:21 PM   #1249
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
Uh...have you even read the entire thread? Seems most people do agree and ALL the ones at the local track here agree. I can have it both ways...most can disagree with changing the cells (and do) and if he's going to say that you don't lose anything by dropping a cell or two then he needs to back up that statement with facts. It's really pretty simple...I have a chart.
I don`t know ...
Joel said he likes the 5 cell and even wants to use 5 cell in his next meet ...

Joel is all the proof I need .....


He faster than bout everyone and should know, specially after he`s all ready been practicing with and testing the 5cell....
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:27 PM   #1250
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer

Josh how many "PAID" racers do you think are in stock? "paid", not get stuff for free now and then. "get a check" to run stock motors.

I can tell you without a doubt that NO EA Stock/19T Driver's get paid!! Never have never will!!

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Old 12-13-2006, 02:28 PM   #1251
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I can vouch for that EA, after winning the Champs and multiple top 3 finishes, I never saw a check, just a pat on the back and a "good job!"
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:30 PM   #1252
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Originally Posted by Advil
Adrian,

Why don't we ban all Sponsorship from the Stock Classes at Level 3 Events or higher. While we are at it, penalize any Manufacturer that advertises a "Stock" Class win with a ROAR Nationals Suspension. I really do think that this that big of a problem. Let ROAR make the Stock class once again a haven for Privateers!

I think that though painful for some, it would definately make things better for many.

What do you think???
Although not addressed to me, let me tell you why that won't work. Who decides what "sponsorship" really is? 90% of kids racing that are 15 years old or less are NOT buying their stuff. My son, now 17, has never bought anything, not one part, and he gets to race all over the country, and has never spent a dime to do it. Is he sponsored? Isn't that definition of "sponsored", getting things for free?

Let's say Tekin gives "ME" an ESC at no charge, to test or "whatever" with it. I put it in my sons car, because I didn't use it. Is he "sponsored".

If I pay the gas, hotel and entry fees for guys that work here to race, are they sponsored?

Hohwart and I discussed this for a while just last week.
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:40 PM   #1253
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
Although not addressed to me, let me tell you why that won't work. Who decides what "sponsorship" really is? 90% of kids racing that are 15 years old or less are NOT buying their stuff. My son, now 17, has never bought anything, not one part, and he gets to race all over the country, and has never spent a dime to do it. Is he sponsored? Isn't that definition of "sponsored", getting things for free?

Let's say Tekin gives "ME" an ESC at no charge, to test or "whatever" with it. I put it in my sons car, because I didn't use it. Is he "sponsored".

If I pay the gas, hotel and entry fees for guys that work here to race, are they sponsored?

Hohwart and I discussed this for a while just last week.
My son races for free too (not free for me....LOL), but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about Factory Support as in Free Parts/Tires/Batteries/Prototype stuff/Travel and expenses/etc. I am also taking about those that get Bonus checks when they win a big event. That does exist...
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:49 PM   #1254
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I have read through 42 pages of posts and now understand why I run nitro touring car over electric touring car. But, that is a story for another thread to stir up another debate.

From what I have interpreted, this is an issue between the have and have-nots. The haves (sponsored) don't really care what the have-not have to say or think because they get the majority of the gear for free (manufacturers write it off as a business expense). When you get the top-of-the-line batteries, motors, have someone to "special" tune them for you, get parts "machined" for you car that no one else can get, it is easy to say "deal with it" or agree with what the current situation. Simple logic, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. The have-nots will always be at a disadvantage because of this. This is what the have-not is trying to convey. The playing field already is not level. Then, the overseeing organization want to change the rules to suit the haves that don't have to pay for much of their equipment, travel, etc, thus putting the have-nots further behind the eightball.

As far as the actual cell debate, changing the mod battery rules from 6 to 4 cell is probably good for that class. However, change from 6 to 4 cells in 27-turn, 24 degree stock is ridiculous. Stock is slow enough as is (this is why I switched to nitro touring), especially on a medium to large track. And, I have to agree with factory-sponsored racers have no place in stock at big events. The rule should be if you have more than 50% sponsorship, you are not eligible to run in stock (should be running 19-turn by this point). The proposed changes should be per the class/type of racers having the issues, not industry-wide. The attitude should be about inclusion, not exclusion. Like someone posted a few pages back, you start running off the newbie who now has a wide range of other options to turn to, who is going to buy the product to help the manufacturer make their profits so that they can continue to sponsor the current crop of racers?
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:50 PM   #1255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
This is the problem. The components are out there but they simply cost way too much for the consumer to handle. We need to reduce cost and get more people into racing rather than raise costs that would push people away.
Okay, let's say I agree with that. Define "reduce cost". That's an empty, no direction statement, like "get more people to race". Okay, HOW!!!???

How do you propose to reduce costs? A stock motor is like $30, a Mod $60, good 4200 mah 6-cell packs can be had for $60-$65. You're gonna probably want a few of each. Is dropping the price of a $30 motor to $20 going to get people to the track?

Just how much cheaper can it be made? Not an argumentative statement, I mean I am curious, I want to know.

You can get started in touring for about $300, and if you want the BEST OF EVERYTHING, you might plop down $1200. That $1200 setup CAN and HAS won the nationals, and included charger and batts. Where is the line drawn? A brand new 4-wheeler is $8000, you can just as easily drop $1200 on a paintball gun. How much is to much, relative to getting people to the track?

I just looked, we stock about 8 different 1/12 cars, the CEFX is the most expensive... C'mon Josh, let's practice a little of what you're preachin'... Sorry man, there's some tongue in cheek humor there, but you gotta admit, there's some great irony in that observation.
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:50 PM   #1256
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Josh…I do understand everything you are saying and what you said gave me some great insight into this whole matter. You have to admit that something’s can be worked on with the electronic manufacturers with out raising the price too much. Look at speed controllers they have really all but stopped development on brushed ESC’s over the past 2 or 3 years….yes some have had new software but nothing really new has been done to them inside from what they are telling us. Look at how fast the batteries have changed and just about all the other electronic items in the car haven’t changed unless you want to talk about the brushless systems. It looks like the electronic manufacturers have just slacked off and are now caught with their pants down.

Me personally I cont care if ROAR races go to 4 cell or 5 cell as it will be the same for everyone…I will still continue to race. The one thing that I will continue to question is what happens when now all the car manufacturers have 4 or 5 cell specific cars with super lightweight parts and drive train parts that ware out even faster now….the cost will go right back up. Then to throw in the fact that racing mod with less number of cells will turn this into a battery war and make your packs that much more important….and make them not last as long…look at the Japan nats. Yes I know it’s the nats but don’t say the same thing will not happen at club events. When it does now the racers will need more packs more often…yes they are cheaper but when you buy more volume then you loose any savings you had. I still don’t see how this will bring in more racers to start with you are talking about the top 5% if that, that even race mod. Why make a change for the mass stock racers out there? If there was a way to get the paid drivers out of stock it would bring down the price in stock to be competitive. So I would venture a guess to say that more people would start to race more. If ROAR does make a change keep it for the mod and 19turn class and work on rules to get paid racers out of stock and then let the weekend warriors race it out in that class.
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:51 PM   #1257
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Bob - 5-10..... Easy....
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:51 PM   #1258
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If the Factories are truly interested in helping to bring up turnouts they will STOP the DIRECT marketing of their products via "Sponsored" Drivers and instead would concentrate on getting their products to the market through hobby stores and tracks.

There, I said it.

Back in the old days being sponsored really meant something. Now it seems like everybody has a % deal. Only the Manufacturers are to blame on this and this is a much bigger issue that no one has the sack to address.

Anybody want to shoot me now? LOL
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Old 12-13-2006, 02:57 PM   #1259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
My son races for free too (not free for me....LOL), but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about Factory Support as in Free Parts/Tires/Batteries/Prototype stuff/Travel and expenses/etc. I am also taking about those that get Bonus checks when they win a big event. That does exist...
And the difference between your son, or mine, winning a national event and picking our pockets to do it, or picking the pockets of a manufacturer would be what?

Either way, bottom line, he paid for nothing, and won.
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Old 12-13-2006, 03:02 PM   #1260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
Bob - 5-10..... Easy....
That's it? It's not like 200-300 guys? You feel a good start for the rest of RC, and the 99.9% of club racers that don't travel would be to get these 5-10 guys to pony up and buy their own motors and pay for thier own hotel rooms.

Those same 5-10 guys, just for the record, would still more than likely win. They didn't win because they were lousy racers.

If I gave you a car I could barely win a club race with, you could very likely make the show with it anywhere. Check or no check, you can't take driver skill out of the equation. Those same 5-10 guys would still be where they were.
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