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Old 12-13-2006, 09:38 AM   #1216
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It's pretty easy to tell a world class racer to just run 19 turn. The funny part is that he's trying to help out the hobby.

It's also just as easy for us to tell you to run a faster class and you guys are getting all bent out of shape about it.

It's going to end in the same argument that little kids have.

"go slower"

"go faster"

"no you go slower"

"no you go faster"

"slower, faster, SLOWER, FASTER"

And all the time that this little tantrum rages, people are quitting touring because it's getting out of control. Plus there aren't any new people running because they can't even get around the track without either breaking or getting in the way of some factory stock driver.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:41 AM   #1217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
What we have hear us a bunch of guys that have been racing stock for a couple of years telling guys that have been racing all kinds of classes for 20 years plus that they don't know what they are talking about.

Isn't the internet great. If this was 1990 we would all be racing 4 or 5 cells now and this would not be an issue at all. Racers would just deal with it and adapt like that did with all similar changes before.
Oh so true!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:58 AM   #1218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
What we have hear us a bunch of guys that have been racing stock for a couple of years telling guys that have been racing all kinds of classes for 20 years plus that they don't know what they are talking about.

Isn't the internet great. If this was 1990 we would all be racing 4 or 5 cells now and this would not be an issue at all. Racers would just deal with it and adapt like that did with all similar changes before.
We also didn't have TC's like we do now in 1990.... Back then I was still racing Mod Truck on real dirt, not hardpack....

Matter of fact, I won Mod truck points season and 2nd in Stock then too... Back when we couldn't rebuild the stock motors... Then again I had a peak charger and many were still using their timed charger with a voltmeter attached to it...

Funny thing besides being able to remove the endbell from a stock, the only thing that hasn't changed are the 3 pole motors...

There is no savior to TC, 4 cell isn't going to do it... It must die like every other class only to be reborn at another time....
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:07 AM   #1219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
Hey, guess what...you wanna go slower...race 19T yourself...it's simple and doesn't force a redesign of the entire industry standard 6-cell and push TCs off to the side even more. Oh and by ROAR rules you can run fewer cells if you want so you can run 4-5 cells RIGHT NOW if you feel that's what it will take to save your equipment AND you don't have to force the rest of the TC world to change. That's sounds easier.
Your obviously happy with the way things are going right now. Remember some of these folks rely on our HOBBY to make a living so I think the last thing they want to do is kill the sport that pays the bills.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:08 AM   #1220
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Too bad we already have too many racing classes at the Nationals, otherwise, Josh, I'd suggest to you to ask ROAR to put on an exhibition 5-cell mod class! That, or if you can work with teams to get everyone to try it, maybe all the racers can see the benefit. From what you've seen in testing, it seems all that one requires to get back up to speed is to go up a couple teeth (stock and 19t, I recall you saying you were one tooth above in mod).
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:19 AM   #1221
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Well,

You already know that I think Stock is for New guys. If you take out the factory sand baggers and such and let the up and coming guys get a chance at some A main action than you would see more people staying in the hobby.

Heck I got fed up and sold all my TC stuff earlier this year.
Although I got the bug back and had to get another.

I am no Amain guy, heck around these parts I am lucky to make the B.
But even I recognize the decline in attendance as the new guys that don't have loads of money to buy the faster tuned motors, the top matched packs and a new tire every run. Its discouraging and makes new peeps run the other direction. Heck I have seen more people grab a truggy as of late cause even a new guy can race it for fun, and have enough people in the Novice/Sportsman level to race against to make a good class.

If maybe TC could take from that example.
Novice/Intermediate would be 27T max
Sportsman would be 19T for partial sponsored guys
Pro would be OPEN run what you brung.

It forces the good drivers up and leaves room at the bottom for new guys to get there legs under them and to learn to drive better.

By far I think that separating the novice from the Pro is the best for the hobby.
I think Xray, Corally, AE, Losi, Tamiya, Hot Bodies, HPI, Kyosho, Schumacher, and the rest can all take not having a sponsored guy winning the Stock class.
Heck it gives new guys a chance to get noticed and maybe picked up for a partial sponsorship. I know that encourages hobby growth.

Side note,
I tried 4 cell 19T and raced against 6 cell stock as a measuring device.
Here is what I found.
In the infield the 4cell had tons of corner speed, the 6 cell stock had me on the straight no question. If I were a smoother driver I probably could have kept it closer. Lap times were close as well.
Other notes.
1) Motor came off cooler and very little to no wear on the brushes (they looked freshly broke in)
2) The car felt very consistent from corner to corner.
3) The battery bumped at 6 minutes (IB 3800 couple months old).

If I had an extra pack laying around I would defiantly try the 5 cell. I think that would really help out the speed and keep that really nice transitioning I liked.
Maybe in a month or so when my 6 cell packs get replaced. LOL

Sorry about my rant, it just makes better sense to do something else than to cut cells.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:23 AM   #1222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
What we have hear us a bunch of guys that have been racing stock for a couple of years telling guys that have been racing all kinds of classes for 20 years plus that they don't know what they are talking about.

Isn't the internet great. If this was 1990 we would all be racing 4 or 5 cells now and this would not be an issue at all. Racers would just deal with it and adapt like that did with all similar changes before.
The problem with telling non sponsored or basher type racers to "deal with it" is that they will and they will just go race another class or do something else entirely. When you have people that are your paying customers of your products coming out and saying ďhey I want to keep my 6 cell classĒ...then you say ďdeal with itĒ...the paid drivers have spoken. Well you know what it wont be long until these same people you are telling to "deal with it" will deal with it and just do something else so there is no sedan racing left. Then these same paid drivers are now looking for something else to put bread on the table b/c they are the ones having issues(fried ESC's and Motors) and the average racer just needs to deal with their shortcomings.

Sedan racing as a whole is hurting and going to 4 or 5 cells isnít going to fix the issues. The price of racing touring cars is through the roof and the price to go to a national type event now is even more ridiculous. I really think that racing would start to come back around once all the paid racers are out of stock. Locally we have more people racing rubber tires then race foams on carpetÖ..why there are no paid/heavy sponsored racers racing that class so its more enjoyable for them. If it came down to it and all the paid racers went back to rubber tires Im sure that these same people would ask for the rubber tire class to be broken into two classes to get these same paid/heavy sponsored racers out of the class....the truth is that paid drivers will destroy any class they race in.....why are only non-sponsored drivers allowed in the TCS series? There are more pressing issues that need to be addressed then going to 4 or 5 cells in racing. Right now just from the looks of it going to 4 or 5 cells is going to piss off a majority of the racers that are paying for products and are true consumersÖ.so if you push a big part of them out of the marketÖ.then these few aka pro mod drivers that are having issues wont be collecting that fat paycheck b/c there is no one actually buying their products. I still donít get how the change is so broad spread that what a few want is good for the many that donít want it. And donít give me anything that the cars are too fast people cant drive themÖ.a car with 2 cells is too fast for a new person to walk up and driveÖ.people need to not look for instant gratification and just try to learn and get better at things.
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:09 AM   #1223
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Ok, I have to make a comment...lol...

Most of the "pro" mod guys don't really care - If you change the rules they will change what they run and go race. Most don't collect a "fat paycheck". You can make as much or more working at McD's in most cases. Also, those pro drivers are the ones who help test/drive and in some cases help design the products that the consumer will use when they go to a track. The problems that arise may not effect the average racer immediatly but they can/will in the near future. As pro racer, it is a responsability to help make the products work and not fail so the consumer never had to go through the issues of blowing everything up as we do in hours of testing.

The movement for the reduction of cells was in fact driven by a good number of the manufactures. They presented it to IFMAR at the World Championships in Italy. It was not "pro driver" driven. As a pro driver, I'm probably one of the only few who cares about this topic as I really want to see r/c grow and thrive.

Also, in respects to 5-cells - The IFMAR Off-Road 2wd WC choose to use 5-cells instead of 6....

I agree with you 100% on the paid racers being out of stock.
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:09 AM   #1224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
What we have hear us a bunch of guys that have been racing stock for a couple of years telling guys that have been racing all kinds of classes for 20 years plus that they don't know what they are talking about.

Isn't the internet great. If this was 1990 we would all be racing 4 or 5 cells now and this would not be an issue at all. Racers would just deal with it and adapt like that did with all similar changes before.
No, what we have are a bunch of self-righteous know-it-alls that are trying to force their will on the rest of the hobby to change what doesn't need changed (and forcing TC's to be even more removed from other aspects of the hobby) instead of focusing on how to keep people like myself interested in the hobby. Kudos to you, you do know it all. At least you know enough to listen to only the Mod racers even though there ARE other classes and racers who don't race the big national events. Club racers are still the BULK of the TC racing world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
I've been testing with 5-cells and have been racing at the same speeds...lol... I'll run my 5-cells... If I can get it 100% sorted I'll even race it at the next major events. How about you get a TC and race some stock/19T AND MOD then post your opinion??

I've voiced my opinion. Now I'm going back to work. Good luck to all racers out there and see ya at the track!!
I would buy a TC and race it but until I know if my money would be wasted on equipment that would be completely OBSOLETED in a few months. Sorry, you may have the money and sponsorships to drop several hundred $$$ all the time but I don't. I have to be a little more frugal.

You've said you're testing in Mod..are you also testing 19T and Stock? How about you run all those classes until the battery completely dies and tell us what the run times were. Oh yeah, you can't keep a 6-cell on the track for longer than 5 minutes without it blowing up (in Mod) so racing longer races wouldn't be a draw to you anyway. Now, also remember, do that for 4,5,6 cell. All 3 have been in discussion here. Then show us some actual data. Some spreadsheats, actual lap data from the track, videos..whatever it takes. If you want to PROVE that you can run just as fast and just as long then you need to SHOW-ME (I am from Missouri). Just jumping on a forum and saying...yep, just as fast...just doesn't work. I know you're apparently some big-time, well respected, uber-racer but I personally don't care because we're not calling your reputation into this. I would need DATA. It's called POC (Proof-of-Concept).
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:28 AM   #1225
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Adrian,

Why don't we ban all Sponsorship from the Stock Classes at Level 3 Events or higher. While we are at it, penalize any Manufacturer that advertises a "Stock" Class win with a ROAR Nationals Suspension. I really do think that this that big of a problem. Let ROAR make the Stock class once again a haven for Privateers!

I think that though painful for some, it would definately make things better for many.

What do you think???
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:47 AM   #1226
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Forty plus pages and heated debates on this subject but what I still donít understand is how this proposed change will benefit the hobby or me Ė the newb your trying to keep in TC.

Unlike many who post here I wonít try and speak for everyone but for myself alone. However, I would suggest that Iím probably a key target demographic for the RC industry Ė baby boomer with plenty of disposable income. Cost is not an issue for me but time is. Like many, my job and family (I have two small children and yes I got a late start) demand most of my time. I donít have hours I can spend performing maintenance all week for my 15 minutes of racing. TC is very demanding in terms of chassis set up and that along with improving my driving is enough. I donít have the time or inclination to tune/maintain motors and batteries. So for me brushless/lipo has significantly reduced the time I must spend maintaining my car. A reduction in volts eliminates my ability to use lipo but thatís not really the main issue. My gripes about TC and the reasons Iím leaving are as follows:

Too Competitive
At my local track there is typically only stock/rubber. There are many very talented drivers and they are FAST. Yes, there is a novice class but you can easily dominate that class and still be 2 to 3 seconds off the pace in stock. Itís no fun spending your night trying to stay out of the fast guys way every few laps. Yes, I could keep practicing but with my schedule there are times I cantí get to the track for several months.

I also see people taking this way too seriously Ė throwing cars, swearing, etc. This is supposed to be fun! Who needs this type of behavior and why would I want to expose my kids to it?

Too Complicated
As mentioned above there is simply too much maintenance required for TC racing. I can go play golf and just put my clubs away until the next outing. I heard people say that if Iím not willing to perform the maintenance and learn all the tuning secrets Iím in the wrong hobby. When I raced real cars I had a person to build my motors and another to work on chassis set up. My job was to drive. Did that mean I wasnít a real racer or couldnít enjoy the hobby? Iím not asking for zero maintenance but it must be reasonable and the learning curve significantly reduced.

Traction Compound
Where I race all TC is indoor and I realize this is a personal issue but I hate this stuff. Even the ďmildĒ ones cause my eyes to tear. My .02, just ban it especially indoors. I can only wonder what nasty stuff is contained in the motor/tires cleaners that are used so liberally.

No Fun
This is the bottom line. With all the arguing I see going on, proposed rule changes, lipo/brushless debates, etc. this really isnít how I want to spend my limited free time.

I donít see how this proposed rule change makes TC racing more appealing to me or anyone else starting out. It may keep equipment from blowing up for mod drivers but isnít that where we should be pushing equipment so that manufacturers can improve the product?

So Iím done with TC and will look for another form of RC racing. Most probably Iíll move off-road and run a converted brushless/lipo 1/8 scale and enjoy the extra track time, fresh air, and hopefully a more enjoyable environment. If that doesnít work I guess Iíve chosen the wrong hobby.
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:57 AM   #1227
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That's why I switch to play gas ( less politics, less rules, more fun, more people attending gas race )
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:36 PM   #1228
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JoshÖ.I know most of you guys dont get "fat paychecks" I was speaking metaphorically...lol....Im know what you guys make and its shocking at times for how much you put in and what you get out. I know that most pro racers donít care that is a problemÖ.what is good is to see when people like Rick, Joel and others along with yourself come on here and talk about this. Donít you think that itís a little odd that Manufacturers are suggesting that we slow the cars down to help them? Why donít these same manufactures work on making better products? I mean they are so quick to come out with something new that most of us will run right out and get it why wouldnít a new and improved product sell just as well? Instead they want to slow the cars down to hide the fact that they are selling inferior productsÖthatís like what took place at the F1 race at Indy a year ago. Michelin had tires that were inferior so they wanted the FIA to alter the track so they could raceÖthat was bull they fíed up so they need to own up to and make a better product next time. If I were a pro driver and had to test or race with things that were blowing up I would be upset. Why wouldnít you just say something to them about making it better....other then just saying if we go to fewer cells they donít need to fix the issues? Iím not singling you out per say but you are on here and you have done some testing with fewer cells and have been to these races with things blowing up. What is your take on why manufacturers are pushing for fewer cells and not really addressing the issues? You know what is funny about this whole thing is that I can club race mod and not really have any issues with things blowing upÖ.yes Im nowhere near your level but I donít have electronic issues racing mod. I will say that most of my electronic failures have been while racing stock/19t more so than anything else.

Yes paid racers need to be removed from Stock.
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Old 12-13-2006, 01:08 PM   #1229
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I have a few questions for those who are dead set against the reduction in cells.

1. Are you in this sport hobby for the competition(being able to beat who ever on the track during the race)?

or

2. Are you in this sport hobby to be the fastest guy down the straight?

If you in this hobby for the competition you wont care if the cars are slowed down, you will find a way to continue to be faster than those you race with.

and

if you are in this sport or hobby for pure speed, you can do that on any parking lot with any number of cells in your car.

For me, I am in this hobby for the competition, and no matter what kind of change they make in the rules, I will adjust to contunue to try and improve my ability to render me every chance of winning any race I attend. Everyone I race with will be under the same rules and they will not gain any advantage that they currently don't already have(driving skill, set-up skill or what every advantage they have). We will still more than likely finish in the same order as we do now, but with the change of our equipment(everything) lasting longer and a lot less worry of anything(electronics/motors) burning up.
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Old 12-13-2006, 01:22 PM   #1230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
I have a few questions for those who are dead set against the reduction in cells.

1. Are you in this sport hobby for the competition(being able to beat who ever on the track during the race)?

or

2. Are you in this sport hobby to be the fastest guy down the straight?

If you in this hobby for the competition you wont care if the cars are slowed down, you will find a way to continue to be faster than those you race with.

and

if you are in this sport or hobby for pure speed, you can do that on any parking lot with any number of cells in your car.

For me, I am in this hobby for the competition, and no matter what kind of change they make in the rules, I will adjust to contunue to try and improve my ability to render me every chance of winning any race I attend. Everyone I race with will be under the same rules and they will not gain any advantage that they currently don't already have(driving skill, set-up skill or what every advantage they have). We will still more than likely finish in the same order as we do now, but with the change of our equipment(everything) lasting longer and a lot less worry of anything(electronics/motors) burning up.
I am in the hobby and see many more sides to it than 99% of people here, and see problems in the hobby that go beyond "speed."

Right now, like it or not, the industry standard is 6-cell stick pack. EVERYTHING is designed around it, therefore changing something to less or different shapes is bad. Saddle packs never caught on...why? BEcause they are not standard, even though they balance better.

The long term affect of this is nothing, and we'll be back at square one in 2 years. 7-cell was never standard, but an option to get more speed.


The real question is why is this even being thought about, and has anybody thought about the problems it creates in the hobby. MOst of the people "suporting" this haven't thought that long term, or even the reason why "touring mod" is dying.


Again, if manufuacturers are so concerned with speed...why sell 70mph RTRs, or market speed at all.
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