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Old 12-12-2006, 06:14 PM   #1186
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Originally Posted by o.s. power
I only ran stock because I was new to TC's and knew basically nothing, racing only nitro off road for the last 5 years didn't help setup wise. Figured it would be a good starting point, boy was I wrong! I then ran 19t because it was faster and less people. I stopped that because I kept breaking arms and such.
So the speed was the cause for the breakage? Just driving around broke those parts? And you dropped out of stock because it was to competetive, and you went to a faster class that broke your car.

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Originally Posted by o.s. power
If you want to have more people show up and race, force the pussys that want to go fast in stock up to 19t or mod. I couldn't afford to pay upwards of $100 per battery pack to just keep up with these guys and I got fed up with it.
If you feel you need some special $100 battery to be competetive and the reason you quit running 19t was because you got fed up with breaking parts, I can tell you for a fact that any battery would not have helped your program. Especially since some of the best batterys in the world can be had for like $40-$65 and are worth $20-30 or so when you're done. I don't even think anybody has a $100 6-cell pack right now. And if you found one, I sure wouldn't buy it.

And to add to that, if you broke so much that you had to quit, why not motor down and finish? A finish is ALWAYS better than a DNF.

No offence, but no amount of rules making could change the fact that you crash a lot (you actually said you quit because of parts breakage, and they ain't breaking by themselves), and weren't willing to slow down the car to improve your lap times.

Don't blame the rules or the racers on that one.
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Old 12-12-2006, 06:19 PM   #1187
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I don't know why we arent talking about figuring out how to decrease traction. It would eliminate most of the problems being discussed here.
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Old 12-12-2006, 06:28 PM   #1188
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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
I know Derek, Myself and few others are on the same page here...

Dropping to 4 cells in TC will have a ripple effect on the rest of the hobby.... 6 cell is the industry standard and 99 out of 100 vehicles out there use them...

You are know telling us that if we rant to run TC we are going to need seperate packs from what powers the rest of our cars....

No thanks, I'll stop running TC altogether....

Please stop comparing Pan Cars, do I need to post pictures so you can see the differences between them....

I'll see you at the dirt oval, and offroad nats, if this things goes four cell!


To: Adrian and all those supporting this movent. Everybody that has left Touring car is now racing OFF ROAD NOW!!!

Adrian the off road state series gets over 180 entries for event!!! How many of those guys left onroad! They could barely get 65 guys before. Look to get those guys back to racing onroad will be hard, touring in general is going to die like pan cars. Every type of racing has its time. Offroad is coming back strong , so is dirt oval and paved oval. Your attempts maybe too late. Adrian I know your job depends on this but you may have to start selling offroad cars again! ( not trying to be funny)

I have been looking lately at other forms of racing which at one time considerd dead (dirt oval, paved oval) and are starting to make a comeback. You all need to find something to put excitement back in onroad and dropping cells is not the answer.

Stock should use mabuci motors and mod should have a wind limit of 19 handwound adjustable timing. 19t is comfortable even for the pro's aswell as pro stock guys, it will diffinatly force current stock guys to move up! and slow the pro's down.
Even if they gear the heck of 19t's they can only go so fast before the motor burns up not the speedo. You guys consider trying the above?

Formula one has lowerd engine displacement a few times, why not reduce it for mod to like I said 19 with mod rules ( adjustable timing, hand wound ) Maybe allow rare earth magnets.
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Old 12-12-2006, 09:15 PM   #1189
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Originally Posted by Jack Smash
I don't know why we arent talking about figuring out how to decrease traction. It would eliminate most of the problems being discussed here.
Because driving a "loose" car will break your car. Case in point, O.S.POWER said he went to 19t and was breaking so many parts he had to quit. Let's amplify the handling problems he had, by removing his traction.
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Old 12-12-2006, 10:41 PM   #1190
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Traction helps you hit things harder. I have broken way more stuff racing 19t onroad than I have with 10+ years of modified offroad.
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:01 PM   #1191
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I wasn't breaking alot of parts. It was one of the reasons I stopped along with me being new to touring cars, didn't really know how to drive them fast or set them up correctly, and the fact that most of the people at the track were absolute dicks and never wanted to help. I would have stuck with it, but I just didn't have a budget or patience to deal with it. Yes I left stock because it was too competitive, but these people should be running 19t since their skills and budget were so much higher than mine. When you get better, you want to faster right? How much faster can you go in stock?
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:04 PM   #1192
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If you race, you're bound to break stuff....

But I think you'll break less if you have traction comparing with less traction.
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:17 PM   #1193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedxl
Formula one has lowerd engine displacement a few times, why not reduce it for mod to like I said 19 with mod rules ( adjustable timing, hand wound ) Maybe allow rare earth magnets.
Formula 1 as has people die. But even with "less powerful" engines they are going faster than ever. So it doesn't work. There are no new teams jumping into formula one.

I read a brilliant quote in a 1:1 magazine from Sienna, or one of the other greats. His complaint was that all the electic gizmos actually take away the skill of driving, and let people who were slow think they are fast. I've heard TC drivers say the same thing with carpet foam.


But you are correct, cycles of classes come and go. Off-road has never gone out of fad, just moved away from 1/10 blue groove. Buggies rip up the track so much that there is never a perfect line, and when you have a bad day you just go slower around the track, while onroad you can't get around the track.
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:29 PM   #1194
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Originally Posted by DerekB
Josh, I'm not sure anybody is attacking your opinion, but what not do the "cheap" solution and think about a closed-endbell class. Those motors are about $12, would be slower and be the real alternative to changing the industry standard.

You really have to think outside who you want to race with and think about what the simple task of "unsoldering" a cell does to the rest of the industry, and for those who never asked for the slow down.

It seems that the only people asking to be slowed down are "modified" carpet racers. Well there is more than one class in our hobby, and further subdividing, so that off-road racers can't run touring car, or RTR guys can't show up at the track because you want to race against new people is crazy. Instead of paying people to race stock, manufacturers should be making the incentive to move up and allow new people in. Stock is slow, I don't care what anybody says about it, it's slow. Maybe not to the new guy in the A-Main of stock, but at most tracks that's where beginners start. But you go to these big races and factory back drivers are in stock. The same 20-25 people are at every big race filling up the top 3 mains. Why as a person wanting to race would I waste the time trying to beat these guys who have been racing stock for 10 years?

Cost of product will not triple, how can we have speed controls that are $23 and work fine up to 17 turns, but our $200 speedos "don't work" That seems like user error to me. I am not the fastest guy, but I race mod and I've never had these issues. I've had a 19-turn unsolder at the ICC, but that was a hung brush. Should I be mad and want to go slower?

Racing is about pushing it. If you're a real racer you'll always be on the edge, of something. Crashing, burning, melting, cheating.

I know that you think that everybody buys a new car every year, but that's not the case. People race things for longer periods of time, it's not the same as it was when we raced 15 years ago. We now want tires that wear out every run, brushes that wear out, motors that are way to powerful, and cars that go to fast.

But it's very odd to think that we need to slow down something, when 1/8-scale off-road and nitro in general is growing out of control. The reason is not speed, but cost to maintain. Yes you can argue if we went slow we'd not break, but that is not what anybody races for. People who complain that racing should be cheaper probably shouldn't be racing, or can't make the A-main and should be happy. Racing is expensive in any scale, that's how it works.

Maybe all the factory guys should run 5-cell silver can with all plastic cars, and stick packs to show it's not about winning but racing to save a buck?

Again, this is a change to one class that is not in the standard of the industry. 4-cell oval and 1/12-scale don't count because even though they may be twice as popular as last year, it's still almost nothing in the terms of the hobby.

As a track you might see, or might not that racer cars are sold at about 1 for every 20 RTR. Those RTRs need to be fast, or those POS NIkko and other toy brands will take over, because they are cheaper and getting faster.

I wish everyone thought as logically as you do D......

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Old 12-12-2006, 11:51 PM   #1195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Formula 1 as has people die. But even with "less powerful" engines they are going faster than ever. So it doesn't work. There are no new teams jumping into formula one.

I read a brilliant quote in a 1:1 magazine from Sienna, or one of the other greats. His complaint was that all the electic gizmos actually take away the skill of driving, and let people who were slow think they are fast. I've heard TC drivers say the same thing with carpet foam.


But you are correct, cycles of classes come and go. Off-road has never gone out of fad, just moved away from 1/10 blue groove. Buggies rip up the track so much that there is never a perfect line, and when you have a bad day you just go slower around the track, while onroad you can't get around the track.

Formula 1 does have new teams coming in, newest team is Team Super Aguri and a new addition that will come in for the 2008 season will be the Prodrive team. Its not that no one wants to join formula 1 but that FIA has a cap on how many teams can join. They won't want a over-crowded race track.

Anyway, thanks for the great Magazine everymonth....!
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:56 PM   #1196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Smash
Traction helps you hit things harder.
Absolutely correct.The more traction you have the more the the limit of available traction becomes a razor's edge.With a high bite car it's either totally stuck or totally gone.The less traction you have the more gradually the car breaks away and the more warning it gives you that it's going away.It's easier to drive near the limit.When you add high downforce bodies to the equasion it gets a lot worse.When the car gets about 10 degrees of slip angle the downforce is gone and all a sudden the car no grip and it hits whatever its pointed at-hard.This is why modern cup cars always hit the wall-in the olden days when they ran stock bodies they often spun out without hitting anything.A lower traction and lower downforce car can get out of shape and still be saved,since they actually gain grip and scrub off speed when they're sideways.Since the corner speeds are reduced they don't hit things nearly as hard.Great fun to drive too!
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:17 AM   #1197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Formula 1 as has people die. But even with "less powerful" engines they are going faster than ever. So it doesn't work. There are no new teams jumping into formula one.

Good grief, enough with the F1 comparisons, it's absurd.
How can you compare $500 MILLION for an F1 team to a $500 RC car???

Stolen from the wikipedia:
"...Although teams rarely disclose information about their budgets, it is estimated that they range from US$75 million to US$500 million each.

Entering a new team in the Formula One World Championship requires a 25 million (about US$47 million) up-front payment to the FIA, which is then repaid to the team over the course of the season...."



Well that's just crap, how can I ever race F1? If they lower it to 1/2 that I'm in...

If a $500 RC car is to expensive, just how much cheaper should it be?

A new 4 wheeler is $8,000 a new YZ250 is $6500 both of which are worth 1/2 that in a year. New RC car, $500 with no risk of physical injury.
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Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 12-13-2006 at 12:29 AM.
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:38 AM   #1198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
I read a brilliant quote in a 1:1 magazine from Sienna, or one of the other greats. His complaint was that all the electic gizmos actually take away the skill of driving, and let people who were slow think they are fast. I've heard TC drivers say the same thing with carpet foam.
No skill, none, whatsoever. Just took it away, Anybody noob now has a shot at the title.

"...Makes people think they are fast..." So nobody is checking their lap times, or what's the deal with that statement?
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:44 AM   #1199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
No skill, none, whatsoever. Just took it away, Anybody noob now has a shot at the title.

"...Makes people think they are fast..." So nobody is checking their lap times, or what's the deal with that statement?
Stirling Moss says the same thing.You missed the point,and you're just being argumentative.
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:49 AM   #1200
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Default Something needs to be done...

Classes come and go because technology and cost finally push the edge of the envelope and the wallet. People don't get tired of the class they get tired of trying to keep up with it and we as an industry stand by and let the cycle happen. Keep changing the rules to keep the class interesting and it has a shot of staying around. I've watched several classes die because rules makers were not willing to take a chance to save the class.

Speed is relative, I guarentee you that 4 or 5 cell cars would only be a few miles an hour slower. But, the current technology has a shot of being much more reliable and ther would be a cost savings as well. Was Touring Car racing any less exciting or interesting three or four years ago when it was slower?

The quickest way to test the waters is to drop a cell or two and see what happens. It may not be the answer, but it beats water dipping closed endbell motors.

As a side note: For years the average electric racer screamed for batteries that he or she could buy at the local shop and be competitive on a national level. Electric racing was never bigger than during this time of unobtainable batteries. Now that batteries are basically a non issue... electric classes are dying. Hmmm.

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