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Old 12-12-2006, 03:20 PM   #1171
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A bit of education would go a long way in solving some of the problems. Sponsors and factory drivers do need to teach up and coming drivers that the video game damage off driving style does not work in Modified TC.

Abusing equipment and improper choices will be evident regardless of the number of cells used.
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Old 12-12-2006, 03:24 PM   #1172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Please rephrase your answer...YOU dont see problem with what YOU race. I saw plenty of Mod motors blow this year. I know MO blew up motors and speedos in your neck of the woods this year too. I guess he is the only one going fast enought up there to do it

I saw Tosso blow a motor two weeks ago at a cool weater outdoor race. At Cleveland he melted a speedo while on an A-main run.

Again, you saw 10 people blow motors, out of how many people race.

Factory Drivers should be melting and blowing stuff up. If they want to have equipment last longer the D-Main as a a few open spots for them.
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Old 12-12-2006, 03:25 PM   #1173
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
Simple solution....switch to Nitro...plenty of fun RTR's on the market for beginners and tons of high priced insame HP engines available for all you speed freaks....
Carl, go work on your new ride and join the electric fun this weekend
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Old 12-12-2006, 03:34 PM   #1174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Please rephrase your answer...YOU dont see problem with what YOU race. I saw plenty of Mod motors blow this year. I know MO blew up motors and speedos in your neck of the woods this year too. I guess he is the only one going fast enought up there to do it

I saw Tosso blow a motor two weeks ago at a cool weater outdoor race. At Cleveland he melted a speedo while on an A-main run.
ACTUALLY 99% OF MO'S MISHAPS WERE ALL SPEEDO RELATED.
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Old 12-12-2006, 03:50 PM   #1175
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Originally Posted by Carl Giordano
Simple solution....switch to Nitro...plenty of fun RTR's on the market for beginners and tons of high priced insame HP engines available for all you speed freaks....
Yea but how will the carpet stand up to nitro cars?
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:01 PM   #1176
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Originally Posted by DerekB
Josh you said something that is pretty interesting to me, and Adrian said the same thing...you were just as fast or faster with 5-cell. So that actually tells me that you should run 5-cell> There is no current rule to say that says you couldn't run it, so why change that option of somebody running 6-cells? You eliminate people with RTRs and 6-cells from racing.

I just don't understand the logic. If you're faster in mod with a 19-turn...run 19-turns. Are we that stupid these days that learning to go fast has to be a rule? And if speeds are the same, I can hardly expect that tire wear, and wear in general is going to be less. THey are going the same speeds with slightly less weight. Great, now my tires last 5 minutes and 15 seconds instead of 5 minutes.

This "little" change, causes EVERY TC to be redeigned in the next few years, and obsoletes 7 years of touring chassis that were designed for 6-cells. The reason 1/12-scale is picking up is because sedans have become so expensive and fragile that people who race on-road are seeing 1/12-scale cars go faster and last longer. How about we add weight to TC so they can make arms that don't break, or think about track design so we don't race on nailed railroad ties?

The idea of switching and causing the ripple effect of redesign through the entire industry, because people racing carpet touring cars break, or don't race it anymore is insane.

Guess what they don't race in Japan and Europe as much, off-road, and nitro. So do you think because they don't have a 2WD truck class in Japan they should change their TC rules to adapt to here?

IF "speed" is the issue, then start a class where the only thing required is a slower motor...and at the local level. The real issues here are just listening to some pro racers at the top levels of racing.

Are these things really going to stop people from racing cheaper classes? NO, not at all, it's to appease something that doesn't exist. If you want to run slower, run slower. LEARN! But don't force the industry to change because of some problem with a really small segment.



The real issues that should be addressed are

• Structure-setting races up for the "beginner"
• Tires- Rules to elimiate inserts so tire wear goes up, and we don't run 5 minute tires
• Not accepting that since somebody can't build an ESC/Motor that doesn't hold up at the worlds or one of the major events, that one part of the equation is penalized. Change the rule on comms, or design so it's slower...something that doesn't OBSOLETE cars in one day.


As a track owner you should understand that "racer" retention is a complicated process. If you're guys are breaking cars every run, change the track. Keep it fun, don't let the "clicks" get too big where a new person comes in and feels like they don't belong. Keep a class for beginners and promote the racing.

Leaving a track to live and die by "Racers" will 99% of the time end in failure.
I can not believe how everyone and especially you can be so against something that is 100% common sence....

What also makes me sick is someone who obviously doesn't know me or any other "pro" driver taggin us as not giving a crap since we get it for free. GET REAL!! At one point, I was not sponsored as was anyone else who was sponsored. I did pay for my stuff and I did make the most of what I had. Trust me, I use my sponsorship to get the best result I can without waisting equipment (I still have cars and motors from when I raced for Reedy/AE back 10+ years ago). With the current standard I have to go through a lot of equipment to race on a top level and I think IT IS WRONG!! I want to have other people to race against and compete with. I'm tired of watching people break and tear stuff up due to the speed increases we have from year to year. Derek mentions the cars are more fragil - No they aren't - We are going faster thus more force behind impacts.

As far as the comment that the US is following the rest of the world on this one, that's B.S.... A few years ago oval racing was nearly dead. The oval community finally bit the bullet and went to 4-cell and have never looked back. ROAR pushed that through and it wound up being the savior of oval racing.

Now, do all of you think that the mfg's can't fix this problem?? They can, but there's a price. They can make speedos that don't melt but the cost will go up 2-3times. Same with the motors but it isn't possible to do it with the motors - the current rules have price caps on motors. Now, add the cost in and tell me how many people will race?? An increase in price by 2-3x's sounds more like a nail being driven into a coffin.....

In testing motors and different things to find solutions I've blown up hundreds of motors and speedos over the last few years. Right now, the problem is in mod but another battery increase or two as we have seen will put 19T into that relm and stock will be next whether you want to accept/believe it or not. It's not just "pro" drivers. I've seen a grand total of about 20+ speedos and about 40+ motors break at our track within the last year. Mainly guys trying to run mod with the right set-ups in and things just fail.

In terms of the cars being obsolete - The mfg's redesign cars every year anyway as they are constantly improving their product and trying to jump ahead. Dropping 1 cell or even 2 does not mean a complete re-design. It means removing a battery slot from the chassis. Most cars are heavy on the battery side anyway so it will change nothing in terms of actual suspension parts. The set-ups I don't even think will change much.

I do/say things that I think will help the sport/hobby for the better. Everyone who is knocking the concept, grab your soldering iron and take off a cell and try it. Look at your motor before a 6-cell run, look at it after a 4-5 cell run. Look at your lap times and how hard/easy it was to race your car.... Then post your opinion. Stop being so stubborn and try it, then form an opinion and complain. Unsoldering 1 cell is the cheapest and easiest way to solve a lot of problems.
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:02 PM   #1177
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
Like it would matter to Mr. Myrberg anyway if he did have to buy new stuff. He obviously has the money to keep himself in all forms of racing like he said, as well as his 2 sons. Some people can't afford that. Not everyone has that kind of disposible income. I guess it's difficult to look at people in other income brackets and understand that they aren't as priviliged.
As I wrote before, Iīve been around since 1971 and at the time, and for decades after that, there was never such a thing as pros or even sponsors on this side of the world. I worked extra for like 30 years to be able to buy my stuff, and for my boys. So please, donīt give me that.
As Electric Chairman in Sweden, and president of the club here in gothenburg I never disuss from my buys perspective. They have sponsors who take care of them these days. They will manage any change I guess. I always think of the unsponsored private driver, who need to pay for his / her gear. Iīm baffled you always seems to think people that argue for a change have some kind of hidden agenda. Perhaps time to start trying to understand what the change can do for you, and not automaticly against you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
This shouldn't turn into a "who's country is better" debate.

But Anders, are there really problems with people running 19-turn? Since there aren't too many "privateer" mod guys, or people running mod in the USA, which has been established, why do we need to alter the industry standard to make a few on-road carpet racers think they are faster?

There are plenty of "slow classes" to be run, so "slowing down" people isn't going to change anything. It still doesn't teach people to drive.

But the bottom line here is that, EVERYTHING runs on 6-cell.

And even one of the most respected Motor companies, and drivers says there isn't really a problem. Racers will "Race" anything, anywhere, but they rarely think of the affects of decisions outside the little world of "factory" racing. And I don't blame them, but looking at what's good for the "whole" often has different needs and solutions.

YOu want to create a slower class...run a 540 class.
Honestly, Itīs the "normal-pay-them-self" 19t drivers that want the change the most here. And no-one is driving 19t outdoor on big tracks either. They run them indoor, on what I guess is normal sized tracks.
I can understand all doubts about 4-cell. This was the same here in Europe when it was up for discussion, and 5-cell was a compromize. But a compromize that all seems to be pretty happy about. I realy donīt understand the big arguments about going slower either to be honest. Some have tested 19t 5-cell here as well, and it seems to be as fast as before, but again, with less heat, meaning motors will last longer.

Last edited by Anders Myrberg; 12-12-2006 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:29 PM   #1178
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
I can not believe how everyone and especially you can be so against something that is 100% common sence....

What also makes me sick is someone who obviously doesn't know me or any other "pro" driver taggin us as not giving a crap since we get it for free. GET REAL!! At one point, I was not sponsored as was anyone else who was sponsored. I did pay for my stuff and I did make the most of what I had. Trust me, I use my sponsorship to get the best result I can without waisting equipment (I still have cars and motors from when I raced for Reedy/AE back 10+ years ago). With the current standard I have to go through a lot of equipment to race on a top level and I think IT IS WRONG!! I want to have other people to race against and compete with. I'm tired of watching people break and tear stuff up due to the speed increases we have from year to year. Derek mentions the cars are more fragil - No they aren't - We are going faster thus more force behind impacts.

As far as the comment that the US is following the rest of the world on this one, that's B.S.... A few years ago oval racing was nearly dead. The oval community finally bit the bullet and went to 4-cell and have never looked back. ROAR pushed that through and it wound up being the savior of oval racing.

Now, do all of you think that the mfg's can't fix this problem?? They can, but there's a price. They can make speedos that don't melt but the cost will go up 2-3times. Same with the motors but it isn't possible to do it with the motors - the current rules have price caps on motors. Now, add the cost in and tell me how many people will race?? An increase in price by 2-3x's sounds more like a nail being driven into a coffin.....

In testing motors and different things to find solutions I've blown up hundreds of motors and speedos over the last few years. Right now, the problem is in mod but another battery increase or two as we have seen will put 19T into that relm and stock will be next whether you want to accept/believe it or not. It's not just "pro" drivers. I've seen a grand total of about 20+ speedos and about 40+ motors break at our track within the last year. Mainly guys trying to run mod with the right set-ups in and things just fail.

In terms of the cars being obsolete - The mfg's redesign cars every year anyway as they are constantly improving their product and trying to jump ahead. Dropping 1 cell or even 2 does not mean a complete re-design. It means removing a battery slot from the chassis. Most cars are heavy on the battery side anyway so it will change nothing in terms of actual suspension parts. The set-ups I don't even think will change much.

I do/say things that I think will help the sport/hobby for the better. Everyone who is knocking the concept, grab your soldering iron and take off a cell and try it. Look at your motor before a 6-cell run, look at it after a 4-5 cell run. Look at your lap times and how hard/easy it was to race your car.... Then post your opinion. Stop being so stubborn and try it, then form an opinion and complain. Unsoldering 1 cell is the cheapest and easiest way to solve a lot of problems.
Josh, I'm not sure anybody is attacking your opinion, but what not do the "cheap" solution and think about a closed-endbell class. Those motors are about $12, would be slower and be the real alternative to changing the industry standard.

You really have to think outside who you want to race with and think about what the simple task of "unsoldering" a cell does to the rest of the industry, and for those who never asked for the slow down.

It seems that the only people asking to be slowed down are "modified" carpet racers. Well there is more than one class in our hobby, and further subdividing, so that off-road racers can't run touring car, or RTR guys can't show up at the track because you want to race against new people is crazy. Instead of paying people to race stock, manufacturers should be making the incentive to move up and allow new people in. Stock is slow, I don't care what anybody says about it, it's slow. Maybe not to the new guy in the A-Main of stock, but at most tracks that's where beginners start. But you go to these big races and factory back drivers are in stock. The same 20-25 people are at every big race filling up the top 3 mains. Why as a person wanting to race would I waste the time trying to beat these guys who have been racing stock for 10 years?

Cost of product will not triple, how can we have speed controls that are $23 and work fine up to 17 turns, but our $200 speedos "don't work" That seems like user error to me. I am not the fastest guy, but I race mod and I've never had these issues. I've had a 19-turn unsolder at the ICC, but that was a hung brush. Should I be mad and want to go slower?

Racing is about pushing it. If you're a real racer you'll always be on the edge, of something. Crashing, burning, melting, cheating.

I know that you think that everybody buys a new car every year, but that's not the case. People race things for longer periods of time, it's not the same as it was when we raced 15 years ago. We now want tires that wear out every run, brushes that wear out, motors that are way to powerful, and cars that go to fast.

But it's very odd to think that we need to slow down something, when 1/8-scale off-road and nitro in general is growing out of control. The reason is not speed, but cost to maintain. Yes you can argue if we went slow we'd not break, but that is not what anybody races for. People who complain that racing should be cheaper probably shouldn't be racing, or can't make the A-main and should be happy. Racing is expensive in any scale, that's how it works.

Maybe all the factory guys should run 5-cell silver can with all plastic cars, and stick packs to show it's not about winning but racing to save a buck?

Again, this is a change to one class that is not in the standard of the industry. 4-cell oval and 1/12-scale don't count because even though they may be twice as popular as last year, it's still almost nothing in the terms of the hobby.

As a track you might see, or might not that racer cars are sold at about 1 for every 20 RTR. Those RTRs need to be fast, or those POS NIkko and other toy brands will take over, because they are cheaper and getting faster.
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:34 PM   #1179
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Honestly, Itīs the "normal-pay-them-self" 19t drivers that want the change the most here. And no-one is driving 19t outdoor on big tracks either. They run them indoor, on what I guess is normal sized tracks.
I can understand all doubts about 4-cell. This was the same here in Europe when it was up for discussion, and 5-cell was a compromize. But a compromize that all seems to be pretty happy about. I realy donīt understand the big arguments about going slower either to be honest. Some have tested 19t 5-cell here as well, and it seems to be as fast as before, but again, with less heat, meaning motors will last longer.

Again, racers will race anything, on any track. I've never heard one 19-turn racer here in the US complain that it's too fast. If they do they should race stock.

This isn't an issue for racers to discuss, and shouldn't be thought of because it's something that has an affect far outside the "track." Electric has so many options to go slow ,that there is no need to even argue of why you want to go slower.

But if anybody wants to market "slower" go ahead. Because if I had a company and competed my marketing would be targeted at the slower 5-cell/4-cell cars. And when people stop buying the slower cars, they go out of business.
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:39 PM   #1180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Please rephrase your answer...YOU dont see problem with what YOU race. I saw plenty of Mod motors blow this year. I know MO blew up motors and speedos in your neck of the woods this year too. I guess he is the only one going fast enought up there to do it

I saw Tosso blow a motor two weeks ago at a cool weater outdoor race. At Cleveland he melted a speedo while on an A-main run.
If you mean I don't see a problem when I race Mod? Yes, that is accurate. When I say I don't see those kind of problems I mean it. We just don't see the kind of failure rate YOU are complaining about. About Mo, kind of funny how you mention that particular problem as I was leaving it alone so as not to throw a manufacturer under the bus....his speedo related problems are particular to that Brand of speedo. Not the fact he was using 6 cells.....as it is, we that are in the know about it don't run that brand exactly because of his problems. See....the consumer speaks with his wallet. I have run MOD with a different Brand of speedo and have not had the failure problems he had. For the record...I am NOT as fast as Mo or Toso. There are very few people with that level of skill. I guess that is my point.....only a VERY FEW are having these problems. hmmmm....

I myself have blown 3 19T motors at one particular race track. Do you know why???? It was because I was gearing them 5.4 while track temps were over 140 degrees....wonder why they blew..... When I switched to another type of motor that didn't have to be geared so hard to run....guess what??? No more motor failures at that track. Do you think I blamed the motor or do you think I blamed myself for those failures?
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:44 PM   #1181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Again, racers will race anything, on any track. I've never heard one 19-turn racer here in the US complain that it's too fast. If they do they should race stock.

This isn't an issue for racers to discuss, and shouldn't be thought of because it's something that has an affect far outside the "track." Electric has so many options to go slow ,that there is no need to even argue of why you want to go slower.

But if anybody wants to market "slower" go ahead. Because if I had a company and competed my marketing would be targeted at the slower 5-cell/4-cell cars. And when people stop buying the slower cars, they go out of business.
I donīt understand where you got that it will be slower.
I said cheeper and as fast as now. That would fit even more drivers I guess.
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:49 PM   #1182
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Originally Posted by Advil
If you mean I don't see a problem when I race Mod? Yes, that is accurate. When I say I don't see those kind of problems I mean it. We just don't see the kind of failure rate YOU are complaining about. About Mo, kind of funny how you mention that particular problem as I was leaving it alone so as not to throw a manufacturer under the bus....his speedo related problems are particular to that Brand of speedo. Not the fact he was using 6 cells.....as it is, we that are in the know about it don't run that brand exactly because of his problems. See....the consumer speaks with his wallet. I have run MOD with a different Brand of speedo and have not had the failure problems he had. For the record...I am NOT as fast as Mo or Toso. There are very few people with that level of skill. I guess that is my point.....only a VERY FEW are having these problems. hmmmm....

I myself have blown 3 19T motors at one particular race track. Do you know why???? It was because I was gearing them 5.4 while track temps were over 140 degrees....wonder why they blew..... When I switched to another type of motor that didn't have to be geared so hard to run....guess what??? No more motor failures at that track. Do you think I blamed the motor or do you think I blamed myself for those failures?

You buy stuff that works? Why buy stuff that works when you can use a Popsicle stick to fix the products that don't?
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:53 PM   #1183
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I know Derek, Myself and few others are on the same page here...

Dropping to 4 cells in TC will have a ripple effect on the rest of the hobby.... 6 cell is the industry standard and 99 out of 100 vehicles out there use them...

You are know telling us that if we rant to run TC we are going to need seperate packs from what powers the rest of our cars....

No thanks, I'll stop running TC altogether....

Please stop comparing Pan Cars, do I need to post pictures so you can see the differences between them....
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Old 12-12-2006, 05:05 PM   #1184
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Yes, this is about mod, but I saw a few posts about getting new people to the track, so here goes. I stopped racing touring cars after 4 months because of all the "bushwackers" running stock.

I only ran stock because I was new to TC's and knew basically nothing, racing only nitro off road for the last 5 years didn't help setup wise. Figured it would be a good starting point, boy was I wrong! I then ran 19t because it was faster and less people. I stopped that because I kept breaking arms and such.

If you want to have more people show up and race, force the pussys that want to go fast in stock up to 19t or mod. I couldn't afford to pay upwards of $100 per battery pack to just keep up with these guys and I got fed up with it.
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Old 12-12-2006, 05:12 PM   #1185
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I race in the UK in much cooler conditions than you guys and there is not many people that I know that have not have problems racing modified this year, that is racing outdoors generally using 7x1 motors; such problems as brushless speedo's thermaling, blowing up brushed and brushless speedos, epoxy coming off the armatures, so many fans used that there really would be nowhere else to put anymore fans on and quite a few people were putting extra heatsinks on there speedos for even more cooling.
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