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Old 12-11-2006, 04:20 PM   #1126
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
Let's see, you said 1/12th are... "Cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up" and how does going to 4-cell make TCs "Cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up"? You still have motor maintainance (for now, brushless is the future), you still have massive setup with all the suspension parts, and you still have to buy all the new equipment to keep up (not really but people seem to think so). So basically we'll slow the cars down, which could be accomplished with a slower motor class like SilverCan classes, and we remove the runtime to keep it at 5 minutes rather then raise the length of the races to say 8 minutes (like 1/12th scale) but it doesn't make anything any cheaper or easier to setup (easier to drive maybe but that could be accomplished other ways that don't change the ENTIRE INDUSTRY). You know, I'm sure that'll improve turnout. Be sure and tell everyone you want them to go slower and race for shorter periods...that's just what people want to hear. Also, more people are going to 1/12th scale because the races are longer. Same price to race...more time on the track actually racing..yeah...don't see how that'd be a draw.

I know, you're another one that's been in this hobby forever and knows better then those of us just starting out...wait....isn't it us new people that you're trying to bring to the track? Guess not. I'll just keep racing my Mini until ROAR makes a FINAL decision next year and THEN decide if I really want to race TCs. I wouldn't want to buy a chassis and batteries and stuff and find out I have to buy all new stuff next year. If they do decide to change the industry like that...I'll just buy a nitro off-road something (and so will a lot more people) and go that route. At least the rules there don't change every couple of months to force me to buy new stuff all the time which is all this change would do.
You need to re-read Josh's post. He did not say TC's with 4 cells were "Cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up". He was making the statement as to why 1/12 scale had a larger turn out at his track this year. 1/12 scale cars are cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up, so more people are starting to drive them.

Since you are a newbie you may need to know Josh Cyrul is a highly respected professional driver. If you read his post above he is doing some actual testing for 5 cell racing. This is the type of data we all need to be able to make our arguments as to lower the number of cells or not.
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:27 PM   #1127
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PitNamedGordie - Thanks! I do think though that TC's would be good at 5-cells. 4-cells will be too much of a jump right now.

I wonder if ROAR or the other major races would be interested in allowing the mixing of the cell counts and allowing for the weight difference. I myself am game to race against the top racers at the next event (in mod of course) with 5-cells vs. the 6 to see/prove that we will not being going slower, just destroying a lot less equipment. Mike Blackstock is supposed to be coming to our track this week to test for the Novak Race and Carpet Nats so we'll see how far off I am from him with 5-cells....

Later all....
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:53 PM   #1128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PitNamedGordie
You need to re-read Josh's post. He did not say TC's with 4 cells were "Cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up". He was making the statement as to why 1/12 scale had a larger turn out at his track this year. 1/12 scale cars are cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up, so more people are starting to drive them.

Since you are a newbie you may need to know Josh Cyrul is a highly respected professional driver. If you read his post above he is doing some actual testing for 5 cell racing. This is the type of data we all need to be able to make our arguments as to lower the number of cells or not.
I did read the post and the comparison was made to show why people were going away from TCs to 1/12th scale and he was using that as an argument to show (somehow) why TCs need to go to fewer cells. In regards to him being a Professional Driver...I personally don't care if he invented RC. I still don't agree and will voice my opinion in this open forum.

As for what he said about everything being cheaper, he forgets to mention the money wasted on batteries bought NOW. That money will be wasted. The cells and packs I have now would have to be replaced which equals MORE MONEY!!! Like you said, he's a pro driver so he doesn't care about that. He gets that for nothing (or REAL cheap). As for less wear and tear on the equipment...you don't think people will just gear up to gain back that lost speed and continue to destroy equipment? You don't think that the new chassis will be lighter allowing for more speed which will simply continue to be uncontrollable and people won't still break parts hitting the boards? If slowing Mod down to the same speeds as a good 19T is the goal...then just run 19T. If slowing down 19T to 27T speeds is the goal, just run 27T. If slowing down 27T is the goal then run SilverCans. It's that simple and doesn't require a complete retooling of the entire TC industry which would simply kill off TCs. Brushless motors are already making TCs more accessible since you don't have to worry about motor maintainance. Going to 4-cell or even 5-cell simply means that it's another FEW years until LIPO batteries catch up and just pushes that technology right out the door. There's an idea, all the technology that simplifies the maintainance of a TC, let's just push right out the window. Let's embrace things that will cost people more money (in the long run) though.

I may be a newbie and you may have more "experience" but don't talk down to me like I'm an idiot. I understand business AND I understand how this will affect those of us new to the hobby and those looking to get into it later. This won't help. If you want to continue to see TC racing die then this is a great decision. Personally, it sounds more like you're trying to protect those who are already "Pros" and don't give a rats hind-end about the newbie, the club racer or the hobby itself.
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Old 12-11-2006, 05:00 PM   #1129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
It's funny to hear that everyone is soooo worried about "going slow". How about going fast without having failure problems and racing against 9 other cars in your heat that all race and finish?? How many of you out there can actually wheel a car to it's max potential in stock/19T/modified???

Do I need to say it again?? I just ran 5-cells and ran the EXACT SAME lap times as I did with 6-cells. Was it slower off the corner and down the straights, technically no - I had a radar gun and there was only a 1mph difference @ top speed on a 90'x40' track. The difference is thought that you have a car that is more drivable (this does not mean slower). With 6-cell, I roll the throttle easier and only drive the infield at 1/4 throttle to control speed from corner to corner. With 1 cell less I am driving in the 1/2-3/4 range which means there is a lot more room to play with the throttle and control the car. More precise driving = less wear, tear and and a higher probability for better racing in traffic.

Last year we had great turnouts of 55+ entries for our Sunday program and there was 1-2 heats of 1/12 stock and a total of under 15 racers with 1/12 cars. The other 40+ was all TC racers. This year, it's exactly the opposite. We have 1 heat of stock TC and 1 heat of 19T TC and that's it!! All the rest is 1/12.... Cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up.... People want to race, have fun, not have to fix their car every run and not go broke doing it.

Yes, we all want to go out on the track and go as fast as possible but there needs to be rules to keep things inline so people can race, be competitive (I mean in competitive human nature not just level of competition) and enjoy the hobby/sport. If rules don't change and adjust for technologies advancements we will turn our sport into a tighter "nich" group than it is (imaging if F1 didn't change rules to slow the cars down each year). Cost to race will go up, with that there will be less people racing, less people to support a track/hobby shop to keep the doors open.....

Don't forget, I've owned and R/C track for 3 years now and raced professionally since I was 14 (now 28). I've seen the change in speed over the years and it is so impressive but it's to a point that something needs to be done for the future. I applaud EFRA and JMRCA for their efforts reguardless of the people on the internet have to say. Hopefully, ROAR and IFMAR will follow suit soon.
Josh you said something that is pretty interesting to me, and Adrian said the same thing...you were just as fast or faster with 5-cell. So that actually tells me that you should run 5-cell> There is no current rule to say that says you couldn't run it, so why change that option of somebody running 6-cells? You eliminate people with RTRs and 6-cells from racing.

I just don't understand the logic. If you're faster in mod with a 19-turn...run 19-turns. Are we that stupid these days that learning to go fast has to be a rule? And if speeds are the same, I can hardly expect that tire wear, and wear in general is going to be less. THey are going the same speeds with slightly less weight. Great, now my tires last 5 minutes and 15 seconds instead of 5 minutes.

This "little" change, causes EVERY TC to be redeigned in the next few years, and obsoletes 7 years of touring chassis that were designed for 6-cells. The reason 1/12-scale is picking up is because sedans have become so expensive and fragile that people who race on-road are seeing 1/12-scale cars go faster and last longer. How about we add weight to TC so they can make arms that don't break, or think about track design so we don't race on nailed railroad ties?

The idea of switching and causing the ripple effect of redesign through the entire industry, because people racing carpet touring cars break, or don't race it anymore is insane.

Guess what they don't race in Japan and Europe as much, off-road, and nitro. So do you think because they don't have a 2WD truck class in Japan they should change their TC rules to adapt to here?

IF "speed" is the issue, then start a class where the only thing required is a slower motor...and at the local level. The real issues here are just listening to some pro racers at the top levels of racing.

Are these things really going to stop people from racing cheaper classes? NO, not at all, it's to appease something that doesn't exist. If you want to run slower, run slower. LEARN! But don't force the industry to change because of some problem with a really small segment.



The real issues that should be addressed are

• Structure-setting races up for the "beginner"
• Tires- Rules to elimiate inserts so tire wear goes up, and we don't run 5 minute tires
• Not accepting that since somebody can't build an ESC/Motor that doesn't hold up at the worlds or one of the major events, that one part of the equation is penalized. Change the rule on comms, or design so it's slower...something that doesn't OBSOLETE cars in one day.


As a track owner you should understand that "racer" retention is a complicated process. If you're guys are breaking cars every run, change the track. Keep it fun, don't let the "clicks" get too big where a new person comes in and feels like they don't belong. Keep a class for beginners and promote the racing.

Leaving a track to live and die by "Racers" will 99% of the time end in failure.
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:07 PM   #1130
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The problem I see here is the narrowminded look at it from a racing perspective only... This is a hobby and yes racing is part of it but still a hobby...

Once you exclude the RTR's and stick packs you'll see even more of a reduction of new people coming in....

What about the guys who race summer off road and winter on road? They now have to have seperate packs for both seasons???
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:02 PM   #1131
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Yep, what DerekB and vtl1180ny said. Oh, they aren't super-sponsored racers so their opinions don't matter either I suppose.
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:45 PM   #1132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
I did read the post and the comparison was made to show why people were going away from TCs to 1/12th scale and he was using that as an argument to show (somehow) why TCs need to go to fewer cells. In regards to him being a Professional Driver...I personally don't care if he invented RC. I still don't agree and will voice my opinion in this open forum.

As for what he said about everything being cheaper, he forgets to mention the money wasted on batteries bought NOW. That money will be wasted. The cells and packs I have now would have to be replaced which equals MORE MONEY!!! Like you said, he's a pro driver so he doesn't care about that. He gets that for nothing (or REAL cheap). As for less wear and tear on the equipment...you don't think people will just gear up to gain back that lost speed and continue to destroy equipment? You don't think that the new chassis will be lighter allowing for more speed which will simply continue to be uncontrollable and people won't still break parts hitting the boards? If slowing Mod down to the same speeds as a good 19T is the goal...then just run 19T. If slowing down 19T to 27T speeds is the goal, just run 27T. If slowing down 27T is the goal then run SilverCans. It's that simple and doesn't require a complete retooling of the entire TC industry which would simply kill off TCs. Brushless motors are already making TCs more accessible since you don't have to worry about motor maintainance. Going to 4-cell or even 5-cell simply means that it's another FEW years until LIPO batteries catch up and just pushes that technology right out the door. There's an idea, all the technology that simplifies the maintainance of a TC, let's just push right out the window. Let's embrace things that will cost people more money (in the long run) though.

I may be a newbie and you may have more "experience" but don't talk down to me like I'm an idiot. I understand business AND I understand how this will affect those of us new to the hobby and those looking to get into it later. This won't help. If you want to continue to see TC racing die then this is a great decision. Personally, it sounds more like you're trying to protect those who are already "Pros" and don't give a rats hind-end about the newbie, the club racer or the hobby itself.
I wasn't talking down to you I just felt that you misunderstood his post. And I wasn't sure if you knew how knowledgeable he was. I don't know what changing the number of cell will do. None of us do. But with testing we will have a better idea, and Josh is willing to do that and will share his results and opinions. This decision will affect the hobby and that is why I read this thread. I am very curious to see how this plays out. But I want to stay open minded and I like to see actual testing done before I form a solid opinion. With the change in technology (lipo/brushless) so many things will change and I hope that the decisions made will keep this hobby growing. SO let the testing happen and let's analyze the results. We need to keep in mind the hobby as a whole and HOPE the minds that drive this hobby get it right. We as consumers want to keep this fun and affordable. I don't if anyone has the answer yet. We shall see...
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:50 PM   #1133
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I've been watching and not posting in this thread for a while.

Bottom line. ROAR is not responsible for racer turnouts. If they are slow in your area, ROAR did not cause that.

Figure out what people in your area REALLY WANT!!! Don't guess, ask them.

4-cell is technically already legal, so is 5-cell. Change up a few classes in a way you feel helps your group. THEN come back and tell us what was successful in your club. What you did to even up the racing, and bring people out.
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:58 PM   #1134
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We don't need to test, I can tell you the results now.

1. Most people will go faster in mod. Same reasoning why 19-turn is almost as fast as mod. Tracks are too small and depending on what you're running, grip is too low, so the less power is like a Traction Control System.

2. Motor temps will temporarily drop-until we figure out how to change motors to draw more power, and we'll be back to square one.

3. People will still break. Like stated "it's almost as fast" which means you'll still hit things...people still can't drive.

4. Forces people to buy new motors. Stockers must now buy new equipment to move up, 19-turn the same. Realistically forcing everybody to buy new stuff and stay at the same level.

5. In 2 years ESC spec drops to be "just good enough" to handle 4/5-cell, we get cheaper products.


There doesn't need to be testing. The reason for this change is flawed, and not right because it's not the average person's request of this change. Brushess is being accepeted (a flawed as that introduction was) but this doesn't work.

Realistially there are a few people complaining, and causing it to look like the majority.

I've talked to several "pro" drivers that have never blown up anything, and in 19-turn it just doesn't happen. So we listen to a few people, who generally are fully sponsored and in the A-Main and losing because their equipment fails.

This will NOT attract new people, not save anybody money, not "save" anything. It's a patch and a stall to prevent LIPO, and to have motors that can handle the current power from batteries.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:38 PM   #1135
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Where we race, racing is good, club is good, racers are good, we have fun, all is well. That doesn't mean we don't try and improve things either. I'm working on about 5 ideas for our club right now.

Has anybody ever thought that perhaps racer turnout in some areas is now largely the result of the seed we as an industry planted about 8 years ago? People wanted "RTR", we gave them RTR, and fewer people get deep enough into the hobby to really BUILD a car and get involved now.

Building your first kit got you involved, and taught you how to build and wrench, and problem solve. Then you wanted to go out and drive and race.

Now it's simply pull it out of the box and go. IF it breaks, you're done with the hobby, put it in the closet and move on.

Don't know. Just tossing out an idea.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:53 PM   #1136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
This "little" change, causes EVERY TC to be redeigned in the next few years, and obsoletes 7 years of touring chassis that were designed for 6-cells.
No, it does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
The problem I see here is the narrowminded look at it from a racing perspective only... This is a hobby and yes racing is part of it but still a hobby...
Itīs not as narrowminded as you want it to look like.
People in general have a problem taking a good advice from others that have done the mistakes, and seems to need to make them themself before they belewe in it.... Thatīs narrowminded. But you are not one of them right?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny

What about the guys who race summer off road and winter on road? They now have to have seperate packs for both seasons???
Are you serious now? Should Roars rule be dictated by the possibility that someone, somewhere need to buy another pack of batteries summertime?


If Roar goes 5-cell ( 4-cell was up for proposal at the EFRA AGM aas well, but changed to 5 as a good compromice for now ), I guess the only logic thing is to bring in 5-cells in 19 and 27 as well. Thatīs what will happend in Europe, and people are eager for it here as the temp goes down dramaticly on the equippment, meaning saving bucks for the ones that need it most.
We need to wait until April 1:st, as we donīt want to change rules halfways through the indoor season, but plenty want this change to be done already Jan 1.

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Old 12-12-2006, 12:04 AM   #1137
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maybe we should run without cells... muahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:12 AM   #1138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Guess what they don't race in Japan and Europe as much, off-road, and nitro. So do you think because they don't have a 2WD truck class in Japan they should change their TC rules to adapt to here?
AHEM! We race plenty of off-road. And nitro has become very, very popular over the last 2 - 3 years. It's b(l)ooming.


One thing though: people here shouldn't be dissing the manufacturers too much, saying that they can't make motors and ESC's that can handle the power. They can, but
A) not at the pace the Chinese keep cranking out new batteries
B) not withing the current technical specifications of '.05'-sized motors. Well, it's gotten better now sintered rotors are allowed, but that wasn't the case at the time the (EFRA) decision was made to go to 5 cells.
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Old 12-12-2006, 03:14 AM   #1139
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The answer has already been said

WEIGHT ?

Allow differant minimum weights depending on amount of cells or LIPO.
Then if you are faster with 5 or 4 run them, your motors or ESC are blowing up run less cells and those of us that want that want to run 6 cell or even LIPO can, then theres no need to change the industry standard.

Simple........
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:51 AM   #1140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B
The answer has already been said

WEIGHT ?

Allow differant minimum weights depending on amount of cells or LIPO.
Then if you are faster with 5 or 4 run them, your motors or ESC are blowing up run less cells and those of us that want that want to run 6 cell or even LIPO can, then theres no need to change the industry standard.

Simple........
Itīs not simple. Itīs expensive & time consuming. On the limit to stupidity. ( sorry )
Imagine testing all this at every race in order to be as fast as possible....
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