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Old 12-11-2006, 11:51 AM   #1111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
I have taked to a few top European drivers and they have all said they are going FASTER on 5 cell than on 6 cells...on Mod of course.
On certain tracks this is probably the case. Of course that means that these particular drivers could have used an 8 or 9 turn motor (rather than a 7-turn) and not only gone faster (by going slower) as well, but without the ESC or motor failures associated with using too much motor for your driving ability.

Make the right motor choice, and you won't have problems.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:58 AM   #1112
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then with all that said, lets bring back 1/10 pan!!!!

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Old 12-11-2006, 12:00 PM   #1113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
On certain tracks this is probably the case. Of course that means that these particular drivers could have used an 8 or 9 turn motor (rather than a 7-turn) and not only gone faster (by going slower) as well, but without the ESC or motor failures associated with using too much motor for your driving ability.

Make the right motor choice, and you won't have problems.
Rick How`s going to a slower motor going to lower the weight ?

Lower weight = faster, not a slower motor ....
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Old 12-11-2006, 12:10 PM   #1114
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Rick How`s going to a slower motor going to lower the weight ?

Lower weight = faster not slower motor ....
The voltage of a cell increases speed more than the speed increase due to weight reduction equal to the weight of cell.

Any reduction in weight would result in better handling. So you could see faster cornering speeds. While a reduction in cells is intended to save electronic equipment, a much talked about side effect would be that cars would be slower and easier to driver. In my opinion, a car that is potentially faster in the infield (due to reduced weight) would be harder to drive.

In practical terms, I have run my TC at more than a cell's weight under, added weight, and saw no difference in lap times.
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Old 12-11-2006, 12:11 PM   #1115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Rick How`s going to a slower motor going to lower the weight ?

Lower weight = faster, not a slower motor ....
Why argue with Rick? Of all the people who post on this thread he is the only one who has raced in the A at the worlds... he has first hand knowledge of whats going on.
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Old 12-11-2006, 12:36 PM   #1116
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Just for a test, I wanted to see how fast we can actually go with a reduced # of cells....


Over the weekend, I decided to race our CRL event with only 5 cells in Mod TC. I used a 3.5 Peak/Orion brushless motor with a Novak GTB and I added weight so my car was at the current rule weight limit. At first, I figured with the reduction in cells I would need to gear higher. So I went up 2 teeth just to start. I ran pretty good for about 3:30 and the speedo went thermal. It did feel quite a bit overgeared so I dropped it down back to my origional gearing. I went out and it still felt a bit overgeared on the straight but infield rip it still had tons!!

Bobby Flack and I raced the main and while neither of our cars were perfect, we raced nose to tail for 2 minutes (until I ran out of front tire and was understeering really bad) and I had just as much power and my lap times were exactly the same as he could run using 6-cell. We both ran 9.9 as a fastest lap. We both ended up dumping but I'm testing again today with dropping some more gear and actually using a decient battery pack instead of a practice pack.

Just from a first impression. Modified classes will hardly change at all dropping to 5 cells in respects to lap times and speeds. It may be slightly easier on the electronics, it will save you the cost of 1 cell per battery pack. I think it will make it a little bit more of a battery war as we will be closer to dumping. Mind you, this is in foam tires. I think in respects to rubber tires, it will be a piece of cake.

Next, I'm going to test the gearing and better pack. After that, I'm going to take the lead out and get my car closer to the EFRA limit of 1350g. More testing results coming soon....

Later
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Old 12-11-2006, 12:59 PM   #1117
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It actually makes me laugh at how adimate some of you stock guys are about not changing the stock class at all. Like I said, 4 cell isn't the 100% cure for the problems that the sedan class has but at least it's a start.

What cracks me up is that you guys won't even give 4 cell a try. And the ones that do only run 4 cell for a few runs and say it's crap.

You guys are telling us that stock isn't too fast for beginners when we can't get new guys to race because the cars are too fast. Telling a beginner to "just don't hit stuff" doesn't work.

Oh, that's right, your cure is to simply get the new guys to run some 1980 vintage Mabuchi or Johnson motor. So, when they hang too big of a gear on the car and it burns the comm up you can tell them that their motor can't be turned. Nice. At least with a stock motor they would have had a chance at trying to rebuild it but nooooo.

You guys are the ones that we should point to when they find out that they could have saved over $20 per pack on 4 batteries that they just baught. Instead they saved $15 on one motor and they can't even change the brushes. Nice.

Oh, that's right, it's the track's fault that there aren't new people racing. Or it's the "factory guys" in stock. Anything but the cars man anything but the cars.
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Old 12-11-2006, 01:07 PM   #1118
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Hi everybody, I spent two days of indoor carpet (on rubber tires) testing last week and I wanted to share our findings with you.

Main reason for test was to check/adapt to the new EFRA rules: 1350g - 5-cells - no receiver pack

Ronald Voelker (Worlds A-finalist) was the testdriver and he used his standard HB Cyclone, car was ~1390g race-ready without doing anything funky to it to lower the weight.
All tests were done with latest LRP gear (VTEC4200 cells, Sphere Competition "2007 Edition", Vector X11 motors).

Results:
- very low speedo and motor temperature! No fan required on either motor or speedo. (we played with 3.5 to 5.5t motors with both bonded & sintered magnets)
- plenty of power, I'd say more rip then when running 6-cells!
- great corner-speed & handling because of lower weight.
- diffs seemed to last longer, because there is less load because of less weight.

All in all I'm sold to 5-cells now! No receiver pack is required, works well with all existing electronics, etc.
Indoors there was never a serious problem with the "old rules" (6 cells 1500g) but this is definitely going to be a step in the right direction for running outdoors when brushed and brushless stuff suffered this season.
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Old 12-11-2006, 01:09 PM   #1119
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Your post reads almost like your feelings are hurt. Look man, it isnt that no one wants to give 4 cell a try. But, you have to admit, Li-Po was really beginning to make a dent and ROAR just pulled the rug with the 4 cell thing. 4 cells, geared to the teeth, is still slow. Once you get used to 40-50 mph cars, 4 cells just aint cuttin it. How about, going to 6 cells and adjusting that little thing called EPA on your radio. If people are worried about crashing, adjust the endpoint and drived more controlled. Levelling the playing field but making the cars slower is ridiculous. But hey, I am not a ROAR official, so what do I know.
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Old 12-11-2006, 01:24 PM   #1120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
Oh, that's right, your cure is to simply get the new guys to run some 1980 vintage Mabuchi or Johnson motor. So, when they hang too big of a gear on the car and it burns the comm up you can tell them that their motor can't be turned. Nice. At least with a stock motor they would have had a chance at trying to rebuild it but nooooo.

You guys are the ones that we should point to when they find out that they could have saved over $20 per pack on 4 batteries that they just baught. Instead they saved $15 on one motor and they can't even change the brushes. Nice.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXKUG5&P=7

or if its too slow...

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXLYV3&P=7

or if THATS too slow

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXLYV2&P=7

fully rebuildable with standup brushes and bearings. Only thing that needs to be done out of the box is the comm trued and the arm re-centered.
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Old 12-11-2006, 01:31 PM   #1121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
It actually makes me laugh at how adimate some of you stock guys are about not changing the stock class at all. Like I said, 4 cell isn't the 100% cure for the problems that the sedan class has but at least it's a start.

What cracks me up is that you guys won't even give 4 cell a try. And the ones that do only run 4 cell for a few runs and say it's crap.

You guys are telling us that stock isn't too fast for beginners when we can't get new guys to race because the cars are too fast. Telling a beginner to "just don't hit stuff" doesn't work.

Oh, that's right, your cure is to simply get the new guys to run some 1980 vintage Mabuchi or Johnson motor. So, when they hang too big of a gear on the car and it burns the comm up you can tell them that their motor can't be turned. Nice. At least with a stock motor they would have had a chance at trying to rebuild it but nooooo.

You guys are the ones that we should point to when they find out that they could have saved over $20 per pack on 4 batteries that they just baught. Instead they saved $15 on one motor and they can't even change the brushes. Nice.

Oh, that's right, it's the track's fault that there aren't new people racing. Or it's the "factory guys" in stock. Anything but the cars man anything but the cars.
Not changing the stock class? This thread is about not changing the battery standard...not about NOT changing the classes. Are you even reading any of this? Why give 4-cell a try....hmmm...shorter run times (great idea sounds like fun there)....slower (best idea yet). I'll run right out and buy 4-cell battery packs....you've sold me...on the fact that you're clueless. Let me guess, you've been in the hobby 10+ years and you know everything, just like some others on the boards I won't name.

So the reason people don't race at your track is because Stock is to fast? So, somehow having 6-cells in a car makes people not race but moving to 4-cells will suddenly improve attendence at yours and everyone else's tracks??? Could it be that truing comms, thinking about and replacing springs and brushes could be a little intimidating for someone new to racing? No it must be the number of batteries. Let's just drop it down to 1 cell and let the new folks race 1/2 lap so they don't get to scared by the speed or number of laps they could run with 6-cells. I'm sure when the guy going into the LHS asks to see a TC and says he'd like to race, I'm sure the first thing he'll ask is "How slow is it?". I'm also sure when he finds out he can buy a faster car at Wal-Mart, he'll just jump right on into TC racing. BS.

Yep, they might burn up a $16 motor once every couple months rather than spend $10-$20 on brushes and springs every couple weeks. Not to mention the motor lathes and other stuff they would have to buy. Oh, the money they save on batteries could be used to buy that stuff....ok, makes loads of sense. I'm sure just seeing all that stuff is intimidating enough for somone new to the hobby. It's the old rule K.I.S.S....KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID!!!

It is the tracks fault if they aren't bringing in new people. They have to advertise and make the racing accessible and fun. If your track doesn't TRY to bring in new people and just sits back and complains then nothing will change. You can blame the cars if you want...you can blame the speed if you want....but you're wrong. TCs have to be pushed a little. This isn't something you can buy and just beat around the backyard like you can a Monster Truck or Buggy unless you have a good parking lot nearby. The track has to make it exciting and make people WANT to race, not just HOPE that people will show up.
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:03 PM   #1122
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I know its slightly off topic but just to add to what is been said above about newcomers.
At my club we race to classes only 19 Turn Rubber Tyres and open. We usally have 2 heats of 19 and 3 of open. We encourage newcomers to race in either class but I can tell you that at least 90 % of the newcomers choose to race in the open class with mod, and since this debate has been going on I have been asking if they would prefer to run slower and thus probally do more laps but they just dont want to. Has for the electronics how often do you see a newcomer overheat their speedo or motor this is usally down to people pushing their equipment to far. Even though the 4 cell would help equipment for know how long do you think it will take the manufacturers to push the speedos motors etc pass the limits again ?
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:59 PM   #1123
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It's funny to hear that everyone is soooo worried about "going slow". How about going fast without having failure problems and racing against 9 other cars in your heat that all race and finish?? How many of you out there can actually wheel a car to it's max potential in stock/19T/modified???

Do I need to say it again?? I just ran 5-cells and ran the EXACT SAME lap times as I did with 6-cells. Was it slower off the corner and down the straights, technically no - I had a radar gun and there was only a 1mph difference @ top speed on a 90'x40' track. The difference is thought that you have a car that is more drivable (this does not mean slower). With 6-cell, I roll the throttle easier and only drive the infield at 1/4 throttle to control speed from corner to corner. With 1 cell less I am driving in the 1/2-3/4 range which means there is a lot more room to play with the throttle and control the car. More precise driving = less wear, tear and and a higher probability for better racing in traffic.

Last year we had great turnouts of 55+ entries for our Sunday program and there was 1-2 heats of 1/12 stock and a total of under 15 racers with 1/12 cars. The other 40+ was all TC racers. This year, it's exactly the opposite. We have 1 heat of stock TC and 1 heat of 19T TC and that's it!! All the rest is 1/12.... Cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up.... People want to race, have fun, not have to fix their car every run and not go broke doing it.

Yes, we all want to go out on the track and go as fast as possible but there needs to be rules to keep things inline so people can race, be competitive (I mean in competitive human nature not just level of competition) and enjoy the hobby/sport. If rules don't change and adjust for technologies advancements we will turn our sport into a tighter "nich" group than it is (imaging if F1 didn't change rules to slow the cars down each year). Cost to race will go up, with that there will be less people racing, less people to support a track/hobby shop to keep the doors open.....

Don't forget, I've owned and R/C track for 3 years now and raced professionally since I was 14 (now 28). I've seen the change in speed over the years and it is so impressive but it's to a point that something needs to be done for the future. I applaud EFRA and JMRCA for their efforts reguardless of the people on the internet have to say. Hopefully, ROAR and IFMAR will follow suit soon.
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:43 PM   #1124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul
It's funny to hear that everyone is soooo worried about "going slow". How about going fast without having failure problems and racing against 9 other cars in your heat that all race and finish?? How many of you out there can actually wheel a car to it's max potential in stock/19T/modified???

Do I need to say it again?? I just ran 5-cells and ran the EXACT SAME lap times as I did with 6-cells. Was it slower off the corner and down the straights, technically no - I had a radar gun and there was only a 1mph difference @ top speed on a 90'x40' track. The difference is thought that you have a car that is more drivable (this does not mean slower). With 6-cell, I roll the throttle easier and only drive the infield at 1/4 throttle to control speed from corner to corner. With 1 cell less I am driving in the 1/2-3/4 range which means there is a lot more room to play with the throttle and control the car. More precise driving = less wear, tear and and a higher probability for better racing in traffic.

Last year we had great turnouts of 55+ entries for our Sunday program and there was 1-2 heats of 1/12 stock and a total of under 15 racers with 1/12 cars. The other 40+ was all TC racers. This year, it's exactly the opposite. We have 1 heat of stock TC and 1 heat of 19T TC and that's it!! All the rest is 1/12.... Cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up.... People want to race, have fun, not have to fix their car every run and not go broke doing it.

Yes, we all want to go out on the track and go as fast as possible but there needs to be rules to keep things inline so people can race, be competitive (I mean in competitive human nature not just level of competition) and enjoy the hobby/sport. If rules don't change and adjust for technologies advancements we will turn our sport into a tighter "nich" group than it is (imaging if F1 didn't change rules to slow the cars down each year). Cost to race will go up, with that there will be less people racing, less people to support a track/hobby shop to keep the doors open.....

Don't forget, I've owned and R/C track for 3 years now and raced professionally since I was 14 (now 28). I've seen the change in speed over the years and it is so impressive but it's to a point that something needs to be done for the future. I applaud EFRA and JMRCA for their efforts reguardless of the people on the internet have to say. Hopefully, ROAR and IFMAR will follow suit soon.
Let's see, you said 1/12th are... "Cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up" and how does going to 4-cell make TCs "Cheaper, easier to drive, easier to set-up"? You still have motor maintainance (for now, brushless is the future), you still have massive setup with all the suspension parts, and you still have to buy all the new equipment to keep up (not really but people seem to think so). So basically we'll slow the cars down, which could be accomplished with a slower motor class like SilverCan classes, and we remove the runtime to keep it at 5 minutes rather then raise the length of the races to say 8 minutes (like 1/12th scale) but it doesn't make anything any cheaper or easier to setup (easier to drive maybe but that could be accomplished other ways that don't change the ENTIRE INDUSTRY). You know, I'm sure that'll improve turnout. Be sure and tell everyone you want them to go slower and race for shorter periods...that's just what people want to hear. Also, more people are going to 1/12th scale because the races are longer. Same price to race...more time on the track actually racing..yeah...don't see how that'd be a draw.

I know, you're another one that's been in this hobby forever and knows better then those of us just starting out...wait....isn't it us new people that you're trying to bring to the track? Guess not. I'll just keep racing my Mini until ROAR makes a FINAL decision next year and THEN decide if I really want to race TCs. I wouldn't want to buy a chassis and batteries and stuff and find out I have to buy all new stuff next year. If they do decide to change the industry like that...I'll just buy a nitro off-road something (and so will a lot more people) and go that route. At least the rules there don't change every couple of months to force me to buy new stuff all the time which is all this change would do.
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:12 PM   #1125
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Let's see:

4-cell vs. 6-cell packs - 4-cells = cheaper

4.8v vs 7.2v - 4.8 is easier on the motor and electronics so less wear and tear = cheaper

4-cell weight vs. 6-cell weight - 4 cells being over 100 grams lighter than 6 means less force behind impacts, less weight/force being exerted on tires, less weight to control while cornering = Easier to drive cars that have less force behind them to break parts and wear out components.

You are racing a Mini right now?? Sounds like you are really hip to the latest problems that are facing the TC market. I don't think you have 1-4 fans mounted in your Mini to keep motors from cooking, speedos from melting. I don't think you use high temp silver solder to keep wires connected to your equipment.....

Thank you fro proving that while the internet can be such an infomative and great tool to promote this sport and hobby, it can also allow people to voice their opinion about something they know nothing about making our sanctioning bodies leary to make the changes needed to further our sport for the better.
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