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Old 12-11-2006, 06:48 AM   #1096
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I like all of the ideas here.
4 cell would not bother me. However, how many people would this alienate? Every chassis mfg would have to redesign.

Motor rule for Mabuchi stock class. Very cool. 27 turns are sportsman stock?

I like lengthening the run times as well. To 7 or 8 minutes for all electric class mains?

There are options.
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Old 12-11-2006, 07:52 AM   #1097
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Longer races will only make it more of a battery war and add wear to the tires and motors.

I also disagree that going to 4 cell will make everyone have to go out and buy a bunch of new equipment. You can change a 6 cell pack into a 4 cell pack. If you change two packs over that gives you an extra 4 cells for practice. If you decide to race a different class, you can buy a new motor when your budget allows (or get a used one).

As far as the cars are concerned, you can take your current car and make it balance out. People are just moving the speedo to the other side of the car where the batteries are removed. The manufacturers will have new cars out in a year regardless of what the battery rule is so it's no big deal.

As someone who runs 19 turn and occasionally mod my biggest expense is tires. The best way to reduce tire wear is to put less power in the car and make it lighter. 4 cells will accomplish both of these.
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:18 AM   #1098
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First off, when you take 2 used 6 cell packs and try to get 3 (used) packs you're asking for trouble. Those 6 cells (matched origionally) have at least been put through the same cycles, unless you have 2 identical packs, you're going to be mixing cells with a different amount of cycles on them...

I decided to try 4 cell 19 turn against 6 cell stock yesterday and it was brutally slow.... Car handled great, but I was getting passed by the 6 cell stock cars....
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:32 AM   #1099
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
Longer races will only make it more of a battery war and add wear to the tires and motors.

I also disagree that going to 4 cell will make everyone have to go out and buy a bunch of new equipment. You can change a 6 cell pack into a 4 cell pack. If you change two packs over that gives you an extra 4 cells for practice. If you decide to race a different class, you can buy a new motor when your budget allows (or get a used one).

As far as the cars are concerned, you can take your current car and make it balance out. People are just moving the speedo to the other side of the car where the batteries are removed. The manufacturers will have new cars out in a year regardless of what the battery rule is so it's no big deal.

As someone who runs 19 turn and occasionally mod my biggest expense is tires. The best way to reduce tire wear is to put less power in the car and make it lighter. 4 cells will accomplish both of these.

Ok, you say people won't have to spend extra money? Go back and read my other posts, they explain in detail why people would. True, you can "make" the car balance out but the cars are DESIGNED for 6-cells and who really wants to move the ESC to the other side..making longer connections and things run less efficiently (shorter wires are more efficient). Going to 4-cell only means that expensive equipment is now slower than cheap crap from RadioShack so why buy the expensive stuff?

Funny thing is the supporters of 4-cell keep talking about Needing a slower "stock" class and that "Mod" is to fast and blowing up motors, ESCs and Batteries. The solution isn't 4-cell folks, do any of you even understand what that would do to the industry? It would mean a complete redesign of all the equipment used in the hobby and if you don't think it would then you're completely clueless. I understand that new stuff comes out every year anyway but the new stuff every year are supposed to be IMPROVEMENTS, not a step BACKWARDS...which is what going to 4-cell would be. The solutions are simple and already in place in most places. You want a slower class....Mabuchi/Johnson silvercan motors, simple and requires no redesign of a single thing, makes it a lot more simple than redesigning the entire hobby don't you think. As for the Mod guys blowing stuff up...that's there problem. That's why it's the fastest, toughest class. If you're frying your stuff then it's your fault and you'll gear down (or motor down) next time. Mod guys should have the ability to make their cars go as fast as they can, that's the point of Mod. It's an OPEN ALL OUT CLASS!!! You don't slow it down, then it becomes just another Spec class. I keep hearing that there are to many classes already....huh??? 3 classe are to many? Stock, 19T, Mod...what other classe for 1/10 scale touring car are there? Yes, each of those can be broken up by Rubber/Foam tires but that's not really another class. Adding another class for a TRUE STOCK SilverCan class would be easier than FORCING everyone to go to 4-cell and FORCING everyone to step up one class. Class structure is simple.... SilverCan Stock....27T ProStock....19T Spec....Open/Mod. 4 classes following ROARS other current rules and there you go. No redesigning of all the equipment. No slowing down of the current classes and forcing people to buy more stuff to step up a class...and...here's the BIG one...a place for the beginner to start that won't be stacked with sponsored Pros. It's really that simple.
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Old 12-11-2006, 08:38 AM   #1100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
As someone who runs 19 turn and occasionally mod my biggest expense is tires. The best way to reduce tire wear is to put less power in the car and make it lighter. 4 cells will accomplish both of these.
This will be the case initially. But it won't take long for tire manufacturers to make faster/softer tires and motor companies to introduce more aggrerssive brushes. After all, these items only really need to last at least one run - just as they do now.

I am confident you will see smaller and lighter speedos as well. We have already seen the removal of cooling devices on the Japanese 4-cell cars. And you will see lightened, less durable drivetrains in TCs to make best use of the limited power.

Overkill is not a word used much in R/C racing. Components are made just as strong and durable as they need to be without being heavy or cumbersome. The "edge" is always the goal.
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Old 12-11-2006, 09:24 AM   #1101
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and again i say that....

people cant 'drive' b/c their too busy havin more fun just drivin around then us 'racers' with the neighborhood Maxx, RS4 or RC10GT. no rules, just fun. nitro offroad keeps sellin new product, but the kid who can wheel his RTR can, and has, come home 1st. more appealin.

....you wonder when impressionable new folks who came this far (gettin past all the $$$ thats sittin there at a club race) as to read the boards bout the hobby, then they read stuff like this, they dont get into the hobby or they go nitro. hmm....

sadly, doesnt seem to be a way out. shame, b/c i've come to be ' molto aggitato ' when it comes to nitro cleanup post-race.

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Old 12-11-2006, 09:40 AM   #1102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
I decided to try 4 cell 19 turn against 6 cell stock yesterday and it was brutally slow.... Car handled great, but I was getting passed by the 6 cell stock cars....
19 turn 4 cell should be just a tick faster then stock on any part of the track, try it again with higher gearing and you should find that. I had to gear up about 12 teeth to run 4 cell and have proper gearing in my car. I usually run 6.1 frd and ended with 4.7 fdr (large track)....you will likely need to get a rather small spur to get the numbers crunched out right.

Back to the topic, keeping stuff from melting is part of the challenge, and come to think of it, everyone racing at a particular event will face the same exact problem....so it is fair. If you don't want to blow stuff up, don't push it so hard.
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Old 12-11-2006, 09:44 AM   #1103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
First off, when you take 2 used 6 cell packs and try to get 3 (used) packs you're asking for trouble. Those 6 cells (matched origionally) have at least been put through the same cycles, unless you have 2 identical packs, you're going to be mixing cells with a different amount of cycles on them...

I decided to try 4 cell 19 turn against 6 cell stock yesterday and it was brutally slow.... Car handled great, but I was getting passed by the 6 cell stock cars....
did you gear up?
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:29 AM   #1104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
Ok, you say people won't have to spend extra money? Go back and read my other posts, they explain in detail why people would. True, you can "make" the car balance out but the cars are DESIGNED for 6-cells and who really wants to move the ESC to the other side..making longer connections and things run less efficiently (shorter wires are more efficient). Going to 4-cell only means that expensive equipment is now slower than cheap crap from RadioShack so why buy the expensive stuff?

Funny thing is the supporters of 4-cell keep talking about Needing a slower "stock" class and that "Mod" is to fast and blowing up motors, ESCs and Batteries. The solution isn't 4-cell folks, do any of you even understand what that would do to the industry? It would mean a complete redesign of all the equipment used in the hobby and if you don't think it would then you're completely clueless. I understand that new stuff comes out every year anyway but the new stuff every year are supposed to be IMPROVEMENTS, not a step BACKWARDS...which is what going to 4-cell would be. The solutions are simple and already in place in most places. You want a slower class....Mabuchi/Johnson silvercan motors, simple and requires no redesign of a single thing, makes it a lot more simple than redesigning the entire hobby don't you think. As for the Mod guys blowing stuff up...that's there problem. That's why it's the fastest, toughest class. If you're frying your stuff then it's your fault and you'll gear down (or motor down) next time. Mod guys should have the ability to make their cars go as fast as they can, that's the point of Mod. It's an OPEN ALL OUT CLASS!!! You don't slow it down, then it becomes just another Spec class. I keep hearing that there are to many classes already....huh??? 3 classe are to many? Stock, 19T, Mod...what other classe for 1/10 scale touring car are there? Yes, each of those can be broken up by Rubber/Foam tires but that's not really another class. Adding another class for a TRUE STOCK SilverCan class would be easier than FORCING everyone to go to 4-cell and FORCING everyone to step up one class. Class structure is simple.... SilverCan Stock....27T ProStock....19T Spec....Open/Mod. 4 classes following ROARS other current rules and there you go. No redesigning of all the equipment. No slowing down of the current classes and forcing people to buy more stuff to step up a class...and...here's the BIG one...a place for the beginner to start that won't be stacked with sponsored Pros. It's really that simple.
I'm not saying that the cars are not "designed" for 6 cells but I am saying that it's not a big deal to switch to 4 cells. There are new cars about once a year anyways so it's not a big deal.

I raced last Saturday at the local track and guess how many sedans that they had for a points race? One heat of stock and two factory drivers running mod. Had 3 full heats of stock 12th though. It was almost exactly the opposite last year.

I've never said that 4 cell is a cure all for the problems that we're having in sedan but at least it's a start. If you guys think that nothing's wrong then maybe it's time that sedans went the same rout as 10th pan onroad.

The only "equipment" that you need to change for 4 cell is the car. You can break down your 6 cell packs, you can use your current charger, you can use your discharge tray, and you can use your current radio and competition level speedo. The only significant change is less cells.
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:38 AM   #1105
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Rick,

What's stopping them from bringing out softer rubber now? Or lighter cars for that matter? I remember running purples and plaids for years and now they're running magenta's (double pink) all the way around in all of the classes.

I get your point but with how fast sedan is dropping off in the midwest, something needs to be done before everyone is running 12th exclusively. Even if it's only a stop gap measure leading into better solutions down the road.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:03 AM   #1106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
I'm not saying that the cars are not "designed" for 6 cells but I am saying that it's not a big deal to switch to 4 cells. There are new cars about once a year anyways so it's not a big deal.

I raced last Saturday at the local track and guess how many sedans that they had for a points race? One heat of stock and two factory drivers running mod. Had 3 full heats of stock 12th though. It was almost exactly the opposite last year.

I've never said that 4 cell is a cure all for the problems that we're having in sedan but at least it's a start. If you guys think that nothing's wrong then maybe it's time that sedans went the same rout as 10th pan onroad.

The only "equipment" that you need to change for 4 cell is the car. You can break down your 6 cell packs, you can use your current charger, you can use your discharge tray, and you can use your current radio and competition level speedo. The only significant change is less cells.
vtl1180ny explained why you can't just "breakdown" the old 6-cell packs. Go back and read that post. I also explained why you wouldn't just "move" the ESC. Read my post again. I also explained that nobody wants to go SLOWER with the same equipment. If your local track can't get people to show up to race then it sounds like a problem with your track and not the classes. Going to 4-cell won't fix that. The easier solution is still a SilverCan class, not redesigning the entire industry. 4-cell not only wouldn't fix the problems, it would make it worse.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:22 AM   #1107
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Upcoming ROAR annoucment:

ROAR is providing the following guidelines for clubs and tracks that wish to entertain four and five cell racing in their respective programs or series. In all cases dummy cells should be discouraged.


For Electric Touring: 5 cells- 1343g foam tires, 1450g rubber tires; 4 cells- 1268g foam, 1375g rubber.

For Electric Off road: 5 cells- 1424g-2WD, 1538g-4WD; 4 cells- 1349g-2WD, 1463-4WD.

This is not a rule just a guide for tracks that want to allow mixed cell count racing. The weight breaks are equal to a cell and a battery bar (75g) for each cell you remove from the car.

I have taked to a few top European drivers and they have all said they are going FASTER on 5 cell than on 6 cells...on Mod of course.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:29 AM   #1108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM

I have taked to a few top European drivers and they have all said they are going FASTER on 5 cell than on 6 cells...on Mod of course.
Then why the big push to 4 cell ?
Was going to 5 cell discussed? That might have been the better way to go.
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:30 AM   #1109
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For those of you who live withing Volunteer Fire Districts or are a member wonder why they are always looking for people or response is slow because they have to pull from neighboring communities???

People don't have the time that they use to anymore, the majority of families need to live on 2 incomes and don't have much free time anymore...

TC's have become very time comsuming.... They have become very overengineered and require a lot of time to perform the maintenence required to run them weekly.....

If people don't have the time to spend with their families, volunteer for a good cause or to help their community, what makes you think that they have the time to play with toy cars...

Some of you all have made this your life, but the majority cannot do that...

It's not batteries, motors etc... It's free time....

When TC's were simplistic land yacht's they were fun and people came and raced since they could easily keep them maintained....

Now that they are lightweight, overengineered and overpriced machines people have walked away....

We went from racing the family Chevy on an Autocross track to racing a Ferrari at Watkins....

You can get in the chevy day after day and turn the key... the Ferrari needs constant TLC....

4 cells will just draw a bigger line between the basher/occasional racer and the racing hobby....
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:45 AM   #1110
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Quote:
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Rick,

What's stopping them from bringing out softer rubber now? Or lighter cars for that matter? I remember running purples and plaids for years and now they're running magenta's (double pink) all the way around in all of the classes.

I get your point but with how fast sedan is dropping off in the midwest, something needs to be done before everyone is running 12th exclusively. Even if it's only a stop gap measure leading into better solutions down the road.
We are already using tires one run so softer does us no good. I was speaking more in terms of rubber tires when I meant softer.

Sedan may be dropping off just because class popularity is cyclical. I raced Cleveland Indoor Champs for the first time in over ten years, and it was the first race I had run in which I drove both my TC and 1/12 in the same track at the same event.

If you think about it, it is pretty easy to see wht TC would be losing out to 1/12. For any given motor class, 1/12 cars are the same speed (lap times). But they are far less expensive to buy and maintain, they are far less complicated to build and maintain, they race longer, and they are easier on equipment (electronics). Going to 4-cell may make TC even less attractive.

I kind of wonder why TC has even been popular on carpet given these circumstances.

Nobody knows why TC is slowing down. It could be speeds, or it could be the fact that the cars are expensive (all components), of the fact they no longer resemble real cars (one of the reasons TC became so popular in the first place). I think we should all be forced to run Tamiya bodies.

To me, slowing the cars down across the board is not the solution. Creating slower classes may help. But I believe we have the technology to change electric racing for the better. LiPo batteries and brushless motors make racing easier, allow more flexibility in race formats, and allow electric to compete with Nitro in terms of speed and run time. Instead of embracing these things, sanctioning bodies, tracks/clubs, and racers themselves push them away.

Lower cell counts result in lower speeds and less run time - exactly the opposite of the direction we should be going.
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