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Old 12-07-2006, 11:13 PM   #1051
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Alot of arguing that new/novice racers need to have slower cars to learn with, so I say why not a 4C stock class for these newer guys to get going with, then keep everything basically the same as far as the existing classes? Let mod guys choose 4 or 6 cell. Some tracks may be better suited for one or another. Tight with low-to-med traction? 4C. Wide open? Let em' rip....Anyone agree with this???
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Old 12-07-2006, 11:56 PM   #1052
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Originally Posted by nf_ekt
Alot of arguing that new/novice racers need to have slower cars to learn with, so I say why not a 4C stock class for these newer guys to get going with, then keep everything basically the same as far as the existing classes? Let mod guys choose 4 or 6 cell. Some tracks may be better suited for one or another. Tight with low-to-med traction? 4C. Wide open? Let em' rip....Anyone agree with this???
Not only do I agree with it, but we are going to do it this weekend at our club race. We are going to convert all sportsman drivers to 4 cell, and 8 minute touring heats. Stormer Hobbies is donating all the batterys for our club to try it out. And a few of our club vets have offered to help get everybody re-tweaked, tuned, and geared as necessary. We tested it last week, and I felt it was a big success (for our club on the smaller tracks we tend to race on).

6 cells and a standard stock are simply to fast for most sportsman and noob drivers. When these guys get the 4 cells ironed out, they finally have something to aspire to, "6-cell stock", not MOD....

In the mean time, less breakage, more track time, and better racing. What more could you ask for?

Is it to slow for a seasoned pro? I'd say "maybe", I've seen a few of you drive... lol .... But that's not what it's about. It's not painfully slow. I watched a noob driver on 4 cells last week, manage to get corner marshal'd about every single lap, while on 4-cells. The difference was the car survived, and he still had fun.

We'll see what happens. Be our luck all the noobs are gonna stay home. We generally have 4-6 of 'em.

ROAR...SCHMORE... I'm taking the initiative to help our club and our noob sportsman drivers.

I also found about 2 dozen lightly used touring bodies I'm donating to anybody in the club. Like a lot of folks on the forums, I can get a season out of one body, so I tend to change them more frequently for fun sake, rather than necessity. I'd say every single one of these bodys is better than any single body I see some of those newer sportsman drivers use.

For better or for worse, this thread has really gotten me to think, and stand back and take an objective look at our local club racing. We don't need ROAR to hold our hands, we need to help each other now and then.
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:07 AM   #1053
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Is it necessary to add capacitor(s) to receiver ?

With only Four cells now...... the ampere drawn are bigger than previous 6 cells.

Or simply use external battery to power receiver & servo ?
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:11 AM   #1054
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Originally Posted by asw7576
Is it necessary to add capacitor(s) to receiver ?

With only Four cells now...... the ampere drawn are bigger than previous 6 cells.

Or simply use external battery to power receiver & servo ?
not sure how it effects each situation, so far, on low amp draw noob equipment it's been okay on the stuff we tried. I suspect as people start to overgear things to get the speed up, you might need a reciever pack. I'll find out more this weekend, as we find out what our noobs are using.
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:58 AM   #1055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
not sure how it effects each situation, so far, on low amp draw noob equipment it's been okay on the stuff we tried. I suspect as people start to overgear things to get the speed up, you might need a reciever pack. I'll find out more this weekend, as we find out what our noobs are using.
I've been testing four cells with GTB 3.5R and Futaba 9451 digital servo. I measure the voltage fluctuation at receiver input, esc output, and battery. I see some voltage drops ( about 0.22 V when I wiggle the servo like 3 seconds,). There is also voltage different ( about 0.1 V ) between receiver input and esc output. The biggest concern is when you pull the trigger and wiggle the servo ( assuming the car is about to exit a corner and make S turns ), the voltage drop is quite significant ( around 0.6 V ).

The biggest amp draws actually happen between 1 to 2 seconds when you pull the trigger full throttle / half throttle. After that the voltage is going up again.
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:41 AM   #1056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asw7576
I've been testing four cells with GTB 3.5R and Futaba 9451 digital servo. I measure the voltage fluctuation at receiver input, esc output, and battery. I see some voltage drops ( about 0.22 V when I wiggle the servo like 3 seconds,). There is also voltage different ( about 0.1 V ) between receiver input and esc output. The biggest concern is when you pull the trigger and wiggle the servo ( assuming the car is about to exit a corner and make S turns ), the voltage drop is quite significant ( around 0.6 V ).

The biggest amp draws actually happen between 1 to 2 seconds when you pull the trigger full throttle / half throttle. After that the voltage is going up again.
a small receiver pack should take care of that ( thats what i got on mine)
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:15 AM   #1057
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Red face Good stuff.

Couple of issues with this proposal.
1. ROAR needs to be at the forefront of getting new people into racing. If they don't do this then there is no reason for them to be around.
The batterys are a logical place to slow the cars enough to bring in the kid that currently ownes a TYCO, Nikko or Radio Shack car. It is simple. We have a lot of new people getting into RC because of these big box companies getting exposure for the whole hobby. A lot of these kids will be turned off if they go from their toy to their club racing package only to find that these guys spend big bucks, go fast and have been driving stock for 20+ years.

If we go to 4 cell, those guys will go to 19T. Your 19T crowd (who are just split seconds off of great mod lap times) will go to mod. Why would they do this? Because STOCK will be painfully slow for them! The new guys who are moving from a toy chassis to a race platform will be more comfortable and have a place to race.

2. The established racers will still go fast and have a place to race. For the ones at the pro end, their equipment will thank them. We might even see a full race finish with all of the racers intact. Get ready. It will make for much closer racing. If more people are racing then the trickle down will fill the mod classes.

3. The equipment mfgs will provide better gear very soon. Some have posed complaints for the companies that they will be left shorted in this whole deal. I don't see it. They are coming out with new cars every year anyways.
They might welcome this rule. Afterall, there will be less strain on all of the components.

Great discussion!
My 2 cents.
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<----- not done yet.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:32 AM   #1058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tex1
Couple of issues with this proposal.
1. ROAR needs to be at the forefront of getting new people into racing. If they don't do this then there is no reason for them to be around.
The batterys are a logical place to slow the cars enough to bring in the kid that currently ownes a TYCO, Nikko or Radio Shack car. It is simple. We have a lot of new people getting into RC because of these big box companies getting exposure for the whole hobby. A lot of these kids will be turned off if they go from their toy to their club racing package only to find that these guys spend big bucks, go fast and have been driving stock for 20+ years.

If we go to 4 cell, those guys will go to 19T. Your 19T crowd (who are just split seconds off of great mod lap times) will go to mod. Why would they do this? Because STOCK will be painfully slow for them! The new guys who are moving from a toy chassis to a race platform will be more comfortable and have a place to race.

2. The established racers will still go fast and have a place to race. For the ones at the pro end, their equipment will thank them. We might even see a full race finish with all of the racers intact. Get ready. It will make for much closer racing. If more people are racing then the trickle down will fill the mod classes.

3. The equipment mfgs will provide better gear very soon. Some have posed complaints for the companies that they will be left shorted in this whole deal. I don't see it. They are coming out with new cars every year anyways.
They might welcome this rule. Afterall, there will be less strain on all of the components.

Great discussion!
My 2 cents.
TEX
<----- not done yet.
Each track/club/hobby shop has as much responsibility as ROAR when it comes to getting new racers to the track. Their existence depends on it. ROAR, for their rules package alone and as it exists now, is the most important entity involved in our hobby. Without it, there will be no R/C racing.

Tracks need to create their own classes for their beginners. They don't do it now, and ROAR making up beginner class rules will be a waste of time and money as tracks don't follow ROAR rules anyway (most of the time).

It makes sense that drivers will "move up" a class to maintain the same track speeds. But in reality it won't happen. Most racers choose their class based on their competitiveness. The A-main 19 turn 6-cell driver will not all of a sudden become an A-main modified 4-cell driver just because the speed is the same. I actually think that in the end, nothing will change and the same drivers will race the same classes.

With all the talk of 6-cell stock begin too fast for beginners, I would expect to see many clubs/tracks starting a Mabuchi class for TC. But I bet by this time next year your local track won't have one.

We the drivers are our own worst enemy - racing in classes where we don't belong and abusing our equipment until it fails then blaming others for our own incompetence.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:36 AM   #1059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tex1
Couple of issues with this proposal.
1. ROAR needs to be at the forefront of getting new people into racing. If they don't do this then there is no reason for them to be around.
The batterys are a logical place to slow the cars enough to bring in the kid that currently ownes a TYCO, Nikko or Radio Shack car. It is simple. We have a lot of new people getting into RC because of these big box companies getting exposure for the whole hobby. A lot of these kids will be turned off if they go from their toy to their club racing package only to find that these guys spend big bucks, go fast and have been driving stock for 20+ years.

If we go to 4 cell, those guys will go to 19T. Your 19T crowd (who are just split seconds off of great mod lap times) will go to mod. Why would they do this? Because STOCK will be painfully slow for them! The new guys who are moving from a toy chassis to a race platform will be more comfortable and have a place to race.

2. The established racers will still go fast and have a place to race. For the ones at the pro end, their equipment will thank them. We might even see a full race finish with all of the racers intact. Get ready. It will make for much closer racing. If more people are racing then the trickle down will fill the mod classes.

3. The equipment mfgs will provide better gear very soon. Some have posed complaints for the companies that they will be left shorted in this whole deal. I don't see it. They are coming out with new cars every year anyways.
They might welcome this rule. Afterall, there will be less strain on all of the components.

Great discussion!
My 2 cents.
TEX
<----- not done yet.

Once again...the new racer would have to spend MORE money to start in 19T rather than stock and WOULD. He wouldn't want to start in Stock since his previous Tyco, Nikko, RadioShack car would now be faster than the "Race Car" he's spending money on. Basically Stock racing would die.

AND...all the people currently racing stock and 19T, suddenly have to spend LOTS of money to step up a class when that class "might" be as fast as they were already running before. Also, the next year when all the manufacturers came out with the new chassis optimized and balanced for 4-cell, they'll have to spend even more.

*YEAH, Let's change the rules so we force everyone to spend even more $$$. True it will probably drive a lot of people out of the hobby and not bring new ones in but the die-hard folks will stay.* Read with lots of sarcasm.

Nobody wants to go slower, I don't care if it's a new person to the hobby or a seasoned veteran. Racing is and will always be about SPEED as well as the skill to handle that speed.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:42 AM   #1060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Tracks need to create their own classes for their beginners. They don't do it now, and ROAR making up beginner class rules will be a waste of time and money as tracks don't follow ROAR rules anyway (most of the time).

With all the talk of 6-cell stock begin too fast for beginners, I would expect to see many clubs/tracks starting a Mabuchi class for TC. But I bet by this time next year your local track won't have one.

We the drivers are our own worst enemy - racing in classes where we don't belong and abusing our equipment until it fails then blaming others for our own incompetence.
The classes are there. Just look at TCS racing. Spec Mini's with SilverCan Johnson/Mabuchi motors. That's a beginner class and just a fun all around class. Vive' le Mini'!!!!!
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:44 AM   #1061
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I'm sure some of the guys from Ottawa have posted here before but I'll post anyway. Our beginner class is 4 cell stock on rubber or foam with a minimum weight of 3lbs. At the last race we had 10 entries which actually made it the largest class on the day. The fastest guys were running 25 laps which was only a couple of laps off the top 6 cell rubber guys and ahead of most of the 6 cell rubber guys.

The class is fun and while we still break, we break a lot less than the 6 cell guys. I'd highly recommend it as a starter class.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:51 AM   #1062
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My local track last year had a "silver can" class with six cells. It was very popular. Some guys ran just one battery all day.
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:04 AM   #1063
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Originally Posted by volracer
My local track last year had a "silver can" class with six cells. It was very popular. Some guys ran just one battery all day.
I believe New Zealanders are racing touring car with silver can, and they said it's super fun They use final gear ratio like 3.00
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:16 AM   #1064
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The last few posts have brought into view the one thing that ROAR seems to be missing. Why do most get into the hobby anyway? From my vantage point, it is all about the speed of the cars. Many newbies that have bought a car to race in my area did because they came out to a few club races and "ooooed" and "aahhhed" about how fast these cars were to them. When you walk into a hobby store and here a newbie asking about a car or truck, what is the first question they ask? It is "how fast does this car/truck go?" If you tell them that car/truck A goes 30mph and car/truck B goes 45mph, which on do you think that they would buy? Much of this whole debate should not be about slowing the cars down as much as leveling the racing playing field by moving racers out of classes that they don't belong. But that won't happen because of ego. Those that sandbag do it because it is easier for them to brag about beating the competition that they have mastered beating than moving to the next level, getting beat for a little while until they catch up to that level of competition. They are afraid of the challenge.
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:45 AM   #1065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
With all the talk of 6-cell stock begin too fast for beginners, I would expect to see many clubs/tracks starting a Mabuchi class for TC. But I bet by this time next year your local track won't have one.
Rick, the flaw in this statement is that, unlike a Mabuchi, you can actually service and properly clean a Stock motor. The life and longevity of a Stock motor is much better than the average Mabuchi. Conceptually though, a good 6-cell Mabuchi would be about the same speed as a 4-cell stock. And having run 6-cell Mabuchi in Touring Cars for 4 years, I love it. It's more about chassis setup and driving than motor...but the voltage race is a big deal too.
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