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Old 12-06-2006, 04:46 PM   #1036
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I guess we need a new thread!!
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Old 12-06-2006, 08:01 PM   #1037
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Originally Posted by DerekB
Stock is not entry, we don't have any sort of skill level separation in ROAR so how can one say that stock, which is nothing more than running the same wind motor, "entry level"?
Because that was the original purpose of a spec motor class. Somewhere along the way that got lost. Doesn't it make sense that stock is entry level, 19 turn is mid level and mod is pro level?
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Old 12-06-2006, 08:25 PM   #1038
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Originally Posted by jiml
Because that was the original purpose of a spec motor class. Somewhere along the way that got lost. Doesn't it make sense that stock is entry level, 19 turn is mid level and mod is pro level?
Made more sense when stock motors had 60% less power and the nastiest mod you ever saw anybody race on-road was a 16 or 18 turn. Now, stock motors dyno like a 14 turn.
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Old 12-06-2006, 09:02 PM   #1039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Stock is not entry, we don't have any sort of skill level separation in ROAR so how can one say that stock, which is nothing more than running the same wind motor, "entry level"?
Actually they have some different driver classes-> masters for us old people, Juniors for the youngsters, Provisional for the ??? and Demo for the Demo....
ROAR in the rules 5.3.2.1 encourages Novice and beginners categories...

I think we are talking apples/oranges here....
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Old 12-06-2006, 09:49 PM   #1040
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Originally Posted by Nova F1 Racer
Actually they have some different driver classes-> masters for us old people, Juniors for the youngsters, Provisional for the ??? and Demo for the Demo....
ROAR in the rules 5.3.2.1 encourages Novice and beginners categories...

I think we are talking apples/oranges here....
Funny that you mention this about this ROAR rule. Haven't you noticed at most ROAR sponsored events that novice/beginners are not really encouraged to participate? In fact, most of us non-sponsored racers seemed to be tolerated by the "big" sponsored guys at these events. Now that I have reached masters' class age, now there is a rumor that they want to up the age from 40 to 45. Funny how things are politically manipulated to satisfy the very few at the expense of the many.

Now, let me address the 6-cell to 4-cell change that is being contemplated. I have tried to stay out of this debate due to running mainly nitro cars but have been keeping up with most of the postings here. Again, this change seems to sacrifice the needs of the many for the sake of the greedy few. If the ruling is just to run 4-cells in mod, cool beans. However, running 4-cells in stock is just plain ridiculous. With 6-cells, the cars are slow enough as is, unless you are a sponsored guy that has a stock motor tuned to where it runs as fast as a 14-turn single. That is where the main problem lies with much of this debate from my viewpoint. The rules and considerations are being skewed to the benefit of the small cluster of sponsored racers at the expense of large number of non-sponsored racers that want to compete but can't due to limited resources. Instead of reducing the number of cells for all the electric classes, why not change the classification of classes and qualifications to run in the classes. Separate the full, factory-sponsored racers into there own class since they have motors, batteries, equipment, and special machined parts and accessories that the common racer can't obtain. Limited the pro racers to 4-cell in 19T or Mod and/or moved the ones that want to run stock into their own class.

I also find it funny that LiPos are banned unless they are receiver packs in cars. Well, isn't the LiPo pack used to run the car also a receiver pack? It does power the RX thus it could be deemed legal be the rules set forth by ROAR. How long will LiPo packs be outlawed? How much you want to bet that when Sanyo, Panasonic, etc put their names on a LiPo pack, it will suddenly become legal to run. Like many others have posted, you can only hold back technological advances for so long. What is ROAR scared of?
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Old 12-07-2006, 06:35 AM   #1041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLock
Funny that you mention this about this ROAR rule. Haven't you noticed at most ROAR sponsored events that novice/beginners are not really encouraged to participate? In fact, most of us non-sponsored racers seemed to be tolerated by the "big" sponsored guys at these events. Now that I have reached masters' class age, now there is a rumor that they want to up the age from 40 to 45. Funny how things are politically manipulated to satisfy the very few at the expense of the many.

Now, let me address the 6-cell to 4-cell change that is being contemplated. I have tried to stay out of this debate due to running mainly nitro cars but have been keeping up with most of the postings here. Again, this change seems to sacrifice the needs of the many for the sake of the greedy few. If the ruling is just to run 4-cells in mod, cool beans. However, running 4-cells in stock is just plain ridiculous. With 6-cells, the cars are slow enough as is, unless you are a sponsored guy that has a stock motor tuned to where it runs as fast as a 14-turn single. That is where the main problem lies with much of this debate from my viewpoint. The rules and considerations are being skewed to the benefit of the small cluster of sponsored racers at the expense of large number of non-sponsored racers that want to compete but can't due to limited resources. Instead of reducing the number of cells for all the electric classes, why not change the classification of classes and qualifications to run in the classes. Separate the full, factory-sponsored racers into there own class since they have motors, batteries, equipment, and special machined parts and accessories that the common racer can't obtain. Limited the pro racers to 4-cell in 19T or Mod and/or moved the ones that want to run stock into their own class.

I also find it funny that LiPos are banned unless they are receiver packs in cars. Well, isn't the LiPo pack used to run the car also a receiver pack? It does power the RX thus it could be deemed legal be the rules set forth by ROAR. How long will LiPo packs be outlawed? How much you want to bet that when Sanyo, Panasonic, etc put their names on a LiPo pack, it will suddenly become legal to run. Like many others have posted, you can only hold back technological advances for so long. What is ROAR scared of?
The masters class age change was for nitro only.
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Old 12-07-2006, 07:33 AM   #1042
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Originally Posted by jiml
Stock ALWAYS meant entry level! Well, at least it used to. Wether it was 1/12 scale or off road buggy, you started in stock and when you got good enough you moved to mod. That went away when mod went away.
Stock has never been for entry level. Stock was to be a restricted class in which equipement wasnt an issue, it was to show case driver abilaties. In full scale SCCA racing the equivalant is ex: IT-7, Spec miata, Formula vee, and spec racer ford. These classes are designed to keep everyone within a performance controled enviroment to where the driver does'nt have an advantage via equipment. It doesnt matter how long you have been racing, everyone has a different skill level.

Racers that were starting out ran a class called box stock "AKA" novice stock.
Once you were up to speed you graduated to "stock", then if your pocket could handle it you ran MOD.
Stock was never designed as a stepping stone to Mod but a means to keep racing cost down. Sponsership was intended for mod but it found its way to stock where it has distroyed the class. I have been racing since 1986 so those of you that truely dont know the reason behind the classes shouldnt be saying that stock is for beginners because its not. Plus ROAR Nationals wasnt meant for a newbie either. Back in the day to attend a national you needed to qualify. Now they let anyone enter.

If you enter a national its because you think your good enough to compete against the best. Novice guys have a place its called club racing.
In recent years people that have no concept of racing have been crying fowl they want it easier, by dumbing down the classes. Same people cry them selves to sleep everynight saying life isn't fair. CAUSE YOUR LAZY AND DONT WANT TO WORK AT IT AND EXPECT IT TO BE EASY!! I guess teacher's that graded on a curve didnt realize the harm!

Sorry guys I just hate hearing, " its for the new guys". NO IT IS NOT! ( Carlos Mancia's Voice DDD!) Stop dumbing it down and put effort into it!

Guys most big races have a sportsman class also, what else do you want someone to drive the car for you!
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:34 AM   #1043
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Sorry, from the beginning stock was meant to be an entry level class. Entry into the world of R/C car racing. Not the guy who just got an RC car. Just like you don't go to the SCCA to learn how to drive a car. First you learn how to drive, then you go to SCCA to learn how to race.

More and more I'm beginning to believe that radio controlled cars, and radio controlled car racing, are two distinctly different hobbies. Anyone can get whatever car and just mess around with it in a parking lot. The vast majority of these people will never go to a race, ROAR sanctioned or not. Racing requires a completely different discipline, one that most people don't want to bother with. From my POV, they don't know what they're missing.

Bob Stormer is right about stock motors being too fast. I was hoping that 19 turn would be the best compromise between stock and mod, but that hasn't happened. It would have been nice if we all moved to 19 turn and left stock as an entry level class.
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Old 12-07-2006, 08:48 AM   #1044
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We can go round and round on the whole stock thing but the fact remains that stock is the entry level class. I can't think of any big sedan races that have a "sportsman class" (Cleveland-No, Snowbirds-No, Vegas-No Novak-No) Some, maybe but most? I also can't think of a club track that I've been to in the midwest that has a beginner class that doesn't run stock rules.

The big question here is what equipment has changed over the past 10-15 years? Let's see, the rebuildable motors are based on ROAR 91 so no change to the winds or timing. The cars have changed for the better but really, they're just more adjustable and easier to work on. Radio's are a little faster and the speedo's are smaller. In 91 or so we had 1700's with about 300 seconds of runtime at 20 amps and 1.14 volts at 20.

Yup, battery capacity is up what 60%? Runtime is higher at 35 amps than it was at 20. And the voltage is higher at 35 amps than it was at 20. Sounds like the batteries have changed a bunch over the years.

So why change the battery rule? First, the slowest class is too fast for new people and "hobby" racers. Mod is so fast now that it's costing big bucks to run. Try breaking into the mod ranks today without a motor and tire sponsor. It ain't easy in sedan.

4 cell is just one way to get back to where we were. The new people are still going to have to drive but they will be less likely to break. The stock guys will have 19 turn to change to and mod will be cheaper (for either the racer or the sponsor).

It's not the entire cure for the problems that we have but it's a start.

We have 3 classes now and not very many tracks have enough racers to support a 4th sedan class for the beginners and hobby racers. It just makes sense to turn the slowest class into the "beginner" or "sportsman" class and have two other classes that are faster.

And before people bring up the battery war, it is and always will be a battery war. Each time they increase voltage and lower IR you'll need new cells. It's a fact of life. The only class that may need more runtime is Mod.
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Old 12-07-2006, 09:52 AM   #1045
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Instead of 4-cell, why not do away with foams? Ive heard and been part of all the foam vs rubber debates. Foams are easyier, but now they are expensive and it is one of the reason TC has gotten so fast. I agree that mounting 80 sets of trubber tires is bad, so what is the solution? This thread is all about ROAR setting 4-cell rules, would these rules be valid in some of the non-roar races (snowbirds..etc)? But if this thread is about roar making adjustments, what about this suggestion.......Do away with foams on sedans, and have roar put a rule in place where I company must submit X number of PREMOUNTED tires for approval (carpet or asphalt) and these tires are ROAR legal for one year just like anything else. So now that rubber tires are back under some kind of control, the cars have slowed down, and setup and attention to detail now becomes most important.
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:02 AM   #1046
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Most big races use a control rubber tire anyway to limit costs.

I agree with going to rubber tires on carpet. You automatically slow the cars about 1 second per lap, and you are reducing speeds in the most difficult parts of the track.

But in my experience, suggesting a reduction in handling does not go over well.
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:06 AM   #1047
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This has nothing to do with foams really.....Most of the issues are at races on Asphalt with Rubber tires in the heat....not on carpet tracks with foam tires as much. Maybe we need to race in 30deg weather to fix the motor issues.... Looking over what you posted Im not sure you have been to many big on-road events. 99% of the big races out there that use rubber tires do have hand out spec tires so Im not sure what more you want? The fact is that people want to pick what ever type of tires they want to use...rubber or foams. Foam tires have nothing to do with the issues that are taking place.....if anything rubber tires would be worse at some places with more broken and worn out parts....1-ways and spools kill your drive train and big heavy rubber tires dont help either.
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Old 12-07-2006, 10:43 AM   #1048
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Wow... a lot of different subject matter experts in here....

Racing level/type: hobbyist, I represent the target that RC companies should be targeting. I pay my on way and in it for fun.

Me: Older racer ( over 50 so no wise cracks ) , in it for fun and challenges of racing and I treat it as a hobby. I am and never will be sponsored, don't want to be. I will never make any money in this hobby because that would take the fun away from it. I like club racing but want to go to some of the big races to meet some of the people that post in here and for the experience. I enjoy the TCS races for the same reasons.

Where do I get a lot of information and ideas about cars, products, setups, tips/etc...
In here reading what the "Fast guys" post and asking questions if I have any.
And then if it works pass it on to the local club racers.

Big time racer: Full or particaly sponsored, must attend the big races and puch the sponsors products. It's their job and they have to treat it as such.
If they don't do good they could lose some sponsorships, thats the way it is..

Should we both be in the same class racing? Maybe... most likely no....
In the 3 qual I am out there with a car that I have bounced off a wall and a shock is loose. I try to finish the 5 minutes and accidently bump the Fast guy causing him to miss the A main. Is this fair for him? Or me? BTW during a qualifier I could be having the best run and if a faster car comes up why should I move over cause that might make the difference between a C and F main for me. A C main would make the race for me whereas a G main would not. How many times has a qualifier/main race been decided by a backliner impeding the front runners.

This hobby needs to take a look at who is racing and have some kind of driver rating system. If you want to call this stacking heats then so be it but lets cut the bullshit and do whats right for the hobby.

BTW stock/modified motors is cluttering up the thread, you can have the faster car, the best setup but if you can't drive what good is it?????
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Old 12-07-2006, 03:53 PM   #1049
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But in my experience, suggesting a reduction in handling does not go over well.
Now there's an understatement! And don't get me started on body design
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Old 12-07-2006, 04:04 PM   #1050
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Good Point Rick...and Kevin.
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