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Old 12-05-2006, 04:03 PM   #1021
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Wanna slow down stock, go back to full stack armatures and standard sized stand up brushes with the current 24 degree mark. Those motors would last way longer and run slower.
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Old 12-05-2006, 04:26 PM   #1022
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Stock hasn't been stock since you could remove the endbell.

I started racing with a club called LIMRA. Back then it was 1/12 only. There were 3 classes, stock, mod, and Pro. Pro was for the top level drivers who put the most work and had help (like a sponsor) with his stuff. Stock was for new people, and mod was for more experienced racers not quite good enough to compete with the pros. Here's the thing, the stock motors back then were not rebuildable. You couldn't take the endbell off without damaging the tabs. That actually made modified cheaper to run since you could rebuild the motor. Guys couldn't wait to get out of stock.

Things have changed considerably sice then. Not only are stock motors rebuildable, but now they're as fast as the 15 turn mod motors we used back then. Add to that batteries with more than twice the run time and much higher average voltage and you end up with a beginner class that only pros can handle. Most on road tracks have no mod class, or a very small one. Not that it's too fast, but it's too hard on equipment. Even a sponsored raceer has a budget he must race under. Why spend the extra money? Just run stock and have fun.

Back when I first started there was a kid who was the guy to beat in any class he ran. Now he's grown and has his own battery matching business. He races 1/12 scale, in stock!!! (groan)
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Old 12-05-2006, 04:38 PM   #1023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
Stock hasn't been stock since you could remove the endbell.
ironically, a situation that was caused by ROAR listening to it's members...

"...We want to be able to true the comms on our stock motors!!!!...It'll save the racer money, and SAVE THE HOBBY..." And so it was.
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Old 12-05-2006, 06:52 PM   #1024
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
ironically, a situation that was caused by ROAR listening to it's members...

"...We want to be able to true the comms on our stock motors!!!!...It'll save the racer money, and SAVE THE HOBBY..." And so it was.
If memory serves, most of the people who used that line had connections with one particular company, but I don't quite remember which company...
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Old 12-05-2006, 07:13 PM   #1025
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
"Made for"...not will they fit. I can fit 18 batteries in those with a little tape, that doesn't mean that the chassis was designed for it. Look at the lightweight aftermarket chassis for both of those chassis...6 slots to hold 6 single batteries. I can also run a single cell all by itself in any chassis which also doesn't mean it was designed for it.
What a revalation... very deep stuff, man.
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Old 12-05-2006, 10:53 PM   #1026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
ironically, a situation that was caused by ROAR listening to it's members...

"...We want to be able to true the comms on our stock motors!!!!...It'll save the racer money, and SAVE THE HOBBY..." And so it was.
If they had only stopped at making them rebuildable, the statement might have been true. Slotted arms, laydown brushes, thinner bushings, air gap adjustments... Too much power from what is supposed to be the entry level motor.
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Old 12-05-2006, 10:56 PM   #1027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
If they had only stopped at making them rebuildable, the statement might have been true. Slotted arms, laydown brushes, thinner bushings, air gap adjustments... Too much power from what is supposed to be the entry level motor.
Who said stock meant entry level? Stock just means that everybody used the same motor...never was it set up to be "entry." If we need an "entry" class it needs to be set up, not think that stock was supposed to be that.
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Old 12-05-2006, 10:57 PM   #1028
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
If they had only stopped at making them rebuildable, the statement might have been true. Slotted arms, laydown brushes, thinner bushings, air gap adjustments... Too much power from what is supposed to be the entry level motor.
If the motors are unrebuildable, people can still find ways to make those silver cans fast...There are still lathes in the market that can lathe close endbell motors...
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Old 12-06-2006, 06:35 AM   #1029
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The one good thing that rebuildable motors did was let everyone see what was inside the motor without destroying it. It's nearly impossible to tech for a twisted comm if you can't pull the arm out and check. They even have a fixture to check the arm at some of the big races.

Stock is the slowest class that we have so it's the entry level class by default. When your entry level class is too fast for most new racers you can't get new people into the hobby (as racers).

I agree that the stock motors could be even slower than what they would be on 4 cells. Even more separation would be better.

Spec is spec regardless of how fast it is. If you're into the whole "stock" as a spec class thing then you're going to be just as happy once you figure out the slower cars. Don't like it? move up to a faster "spec" class.
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Old 12-06-2006, 11:30 AM   #1030
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Originally Posted by DerekB
Who said stock meant entry level? Stock just means that everybody used the same motor...never was it set up to be "entry." If we need an "entry" class it needs to be set up, not think that stock was supposed to be that.
My guess is your suggesting something like the johnson/mabuchi can motors that come with entry level tamiya cars? I bet a class for entry level guys using those might be good. Stock is way beyond entry level anymore. It's like in AMA supersport racing: stock=600cc,19t=750cc,mod=1000cc open class.

Speaking of road bikes, anyone remember when a 600 was average. Nowadays 600's are pushing 120+ in horsepower....something once reserved for only big-bores.
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Old 12-06-2006, 01:19 PM   #1031
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Originally Posted by DerekB
Who said stock meant entry level? Stock just means that everybody used the same motor...never was it set up to be "entry." If we need an "entry" class it needs to be set up, not think that stock was supposed to be that.
EXACTLY!!!
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Old 12-06-2006, 01:39 PM   #1032
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Quote:
ironically, a situation that was caused by ROAR listening to it's members...

"...We want to be able to true the comms on our stock motors!!!!...It'll save the racer money, and SAVE THE HOBBY..." And so it was.
being a very early proposer of the "rebuildable" stock motor, when I made a written proposal to NORRCA for this (Which I was shot down for about 3 years in a row), it had NOTHING to do w/ being able to "true" the comms.

We already had the "STOCK" comm lathes, and the ability to remove the brush hoods for access.

This was stemmed from being involved with several racers who were winning races and having in one year over 10 motors torn down for inspection. MY comments on this situation was that IF we had a STOCK MOTOR with a removable endbell, we could have the Arm INSPECTED and if there was NO evidence of tampering, the arm would NOT need to be unwound. If the visual inspection was inconclusive it COULD be unwound, but the racer would be able to purchase a Armature w/o having to purchase a complete motor.

At that time NORRCA used both 24d motors for "SPORTSMAN" classes and the 36d(PINK) motors for "EXPERT" stock classes.

With the "Rebuildable Stock" motor, we were also told that NON of the MFG's would continue to support the 36d type motors, making both the "EXPERT" and "SPORTSMAN" classes use the same motor.

This did not set well with a large group of so called "EXPERT" stock racers, and at that time, we proposed to create a faster "STOCK" type motor to keep those "EXPERT" drivers interested.

We were writing a rules proposal to create a 19t motor using the same CAN & ENDBELL as the STOCK motors, but with a tagged 19x1 machine wound armature (Built just as a 27t arm, but w/ 19 turns)

Before we finished w/ this proposal TRINITY released the Chamelion I 19t motor. (Unfortunately, it had NO comm lock, was wound reverse, reversing the magnetic polarity, and it had Bearings), but because this motor was released, the refused to build a motor based on the specs that were being written.

Judy Beaver (Former NORRCA, current ARCOR) was very instrumental in getting these ideas to ROAR to try to keep both organizations on the same track. Originally ROAR said there was NO WAY the rebuildable motor would be approved, but after just a couple days of reviewing the rules proposal, we were told it was fasttracked through and approved as submitted.
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Old 12-06-2006, 02:25 PM   #1033
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Who said stock meant entry level? Stock just means that everybody used the same motor...never was it set up to be "entry." If we need an "entry" class it needs to be set up, not think that stock was supposed to be that.
Stock ALWAYS meant entry level! Well, at least it used to. Wether it was 1/12 scale or off road buggy, you started in stock and when you got good enough you moved to mod. That went away when mod went away.
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Old 12-06-2006, 04:28 PM   #1034
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Originally Posted by jiml
Stock ALWAYS meant entry level! Well, at least it used to. Wether it was 1/12 scale or off road buggy, you started in stock and when you got good enough you moved to mod. That went away when mod went away.

Absolutely!!!

Stock IS the entry level class for racing. If someone can find the class definition in the ROAR rule book for the Mabuchi class, I'll change my opinion on this.

Whether you like ROAR or not, they are the defacto standard for rules in the US. Some tracks have created their own rules, but most find it is easier to not get into the rule making business. It can get ugly, and it can confuse racers who are new to your track.

We don't need more classes of racing. If you go to many local tracks, there is usually only one class running anyway... Stock. This is the class where all drivers from raw beginners to those with 20+ years of experience are racing. If stock were too slow for the experienced guys, they would find a faster class and stock would become a good class for beginning racers again.
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Old 12-06-2006, 04:40 PM   #1035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotpez
Absolutely!!!

Stock IS the entry level class for racing. If someone can find the class definition in the ROAR rule book for the Mabuchi class, I'll change my opinion on this.

Whether you like ROAR or not, they are the defacto standard for rules in the US. Some tracks have created their own rules, but most find it is easier to not get into the rule making business. It can get ugly, and it can confuse racers who are new to your track.

We don't need more classes of racing. If you go to many local tracks, there is usually only one class running anyway... Stock. This is the class where all drivers from raw beginners to those with 20+ years of experience are racing. If stock were too slow for the experienced guys, they would find a faster class and stock would become a good class for beginning racers again.
Stock is not entry, we don't have any sort of skill level separation in ROAR so how can one say that stock, which is nothing more than running the same wind motor, "entry level"?
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