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Old 11-30-2006, 02:13 PM   #901
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Originally Posted by DavidAlford
Lipo companies aren't in this to make money. They are in it to help out every good little boy and girl who races. Didn't you know?
C'mon, guys, don't be lame. Batteries will always evolve, that's business. But taking away this choice is wrong.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:15 PM   #902
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Originally Posted by dal bains
Someone had mentioned that money will be saved by not wearing out tires with 4 cells, but then the same people say that the 4 cell will be just as fast... So no saving there..

Brushless????? brushless just started appearing and now we have to make changes before it is even perfected? What if I dont want to run brushless?

Where is norrca?
Fact is that a lighter car at the same speed will pull less cornering g's. That along with less power off the corners will make the tires last longer. Fact is that we won't really know how 4 cell will effect the cars until we run it a little to figure things out.

Brushless has been around for quite a bit now and for over a year in the US. It's still limited a little by the electronics but that's going to change rapidly.

When exactly were brushed motors "perfected" you can buy a "brand x" motor and burn it up in one run in mod sedan. I've seen it happen. Actually, I've also seen it happen in stock.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:18 PM   #903
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Originally Posted by Danny/SMC
I have never talked about Lipos as if I do I will be accused of looking out for my own interest as I'm an owner of a cell matching company.

It looks like I have made a decision not to hold back my thoughts on this subject anymore.

As Lipos aren't used in any type of racing at the moment they are fine for the enthusiast who wants to play. If they do become legal in racing you will see a change with these as matching will become a factor and will be added to the already higher cost. It will also be very hard to tech these packs which will mean we will have the pack of the month.

Let me try and explain where I'm coming from. As Lipo packs have 2 cells they can be matched and if they would become the must have item in racing I would buy matching equipment that would do Lipo cells then we would assemble the cells in house into packs. This would add to the already high cost of Lipos. Lipo technology is relatively new and will evolve at a rapid pace we already have gone from Lithium Ion to Lipo and now there is Lithium magnese.

As company owner who deals only in batteries I have been looking into Lipos. I have gotten many samples and I can tell you for a fact that not all Lipo packs are the same in performance. Not to long ago I was sent some samples from a friend in Asia. I tested the packs and they had real good voltage and IR. A few weeks later he informed that he would be sending me an updated formula that had better performance.


With the current battery situation there is more than enough great cells for every racer as the fluctuation we see in our cell lots is .015 volts at the most with 80% of the cells falling within .007 of each other. Some of you may think you can notice the difference between .007 but you can't.

If we do go to Lipos the companies dealing directly with the manufacturers or companies who can spend the most money will be working closely with these manufacturers to come up with more powerful Lipos at any cost even if these would only be used for major races. It would be great fun for the average racer to get passed on the straight in stock or 19t because some racers have had access to the latest and greatest Lipo packs that were specifically built for one company who spent more money to get the best possible Lipo packs.

This is what I have against Lipo on a competitive scale. Talk to your clubs about allowing it on a local level, but I dont want to end up with these problems if they were allowed nationally.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:25 PM   #904
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Even if LiPo cells were released as often as NiMH. You would still be at a great advantage over NiMH.

Your LiPo packs would not drop off over their usable life, would perform better, require less maintenance compared to NiMH. They are not that much more expensive per pack, and you need far fewer.

Starting at day one when a new LiPo and new NiMH are released, and assuming they can only be used for 6 months until a new battery is released, you will spend much less money (fewer packs), and get much better performance (no drop off in that time), with LiPo batteries. They also fail at a much lower rate than NiMH.

Stormer Hobbies - SMC4200WC $64.95, Peak Carbon 3200 LiPo $79.95

The biggest obstacle is that you would have to buy a practice pack since you can't relegate your old packs to practice status because LiPos don't drop off like NiMH.

LiPo technology is moving forward. But we are seeing progress in size/capacity. Batteries of a specific capacity are getting smaller or you get more capacity in the same package. As long as weight limits are enforced and race remain 5 minutes, there is no need for additional capacity or lighter batteries (they already weigh half that of NiMH).
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:32 PM   #905
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No offense to Danny, but he has a lot to lose.

As a matcher, if you get an NiMH cell that's bad, or has low voltage, it's not such a big deal because they only cost you a few bucks each. Guess how many cells are in a LiPo pack? Yea, two, which means the cost per cell is considerably higher, so there's a whole lot more to lose when you get a bad one.

Battery matchers' business is based upon exploiting manufacturing differences in cells, and passing the cost of getting the best ones from a bunch on to the consumer. Yes, they provide a nice service by weeding out the bad cells, but isn't that what manufacturer's warranty is for? Do matchers get to return the bad cells they get for an RMA? Matchers also benefit greatly from the fact that NiMH batteries don't perform at their very best for more than, what, 10 cycles? That means customers keep coming back for more at regular, sweet, dollar-filled intervals. LiPo seems to go a whole lot longer before they fade, and even then it's runtime that's affected more than voltage. Less frequent trips to the store to buy batteries is bad news for matchers.

So, yes, you might say that Danny is biased. I'm sure he means well, but just like motor tuners, his opinions are tainted by the desire to protect his business. Understandably so, but reciting that like it's some kind of gospel instead of thinking it through doesn't make him, or you right.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:50 PM   #906
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This was supposed to be the future.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:54 PM   #907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
So, yes, you might say that Danny is biased. I'm sure he means well, but just like motor tuners, his opinions are tainted by the desire to protect his business. Understandably so, but reciting that like it's some kind of gospel instead of thinking it through doesn't make him, or you right.
Who said it is gospel? Danny could be completely wrong, but in weighing all sides of the argument, I do agree with alot of what he believes will/could happen with Lipo. Which is why I dont agree with it for a national scale. The clubs I race at allow Lipo, I will probably buy Lipo for club racing or practice days, but I am scared of the possibilities that might happen when serious racing (ie. manufacturers $$$) is on the line.
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:55 PM   #908
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If you donít think that the day will come when Lipo or any other Li type packs and cells will be matched and sold to racers then you are just fooling yourself. It will happen and this is all it looked like Danny was saying...along with not all Lipo packs are the same...just like all Nimh packs are the not same.
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Old 11-30-2006, 03:13 PM   #909
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Okay, for the sake of argument, lets say that buying matched LiPo does matter enough to justify the cost. We can cancel that part out of the discussion since it's the same on both sides. Fair enough?

Now, assuming that part is even, that still leaves LiPo with all the advantages previously discussed. There, end of discussion. See how easy that was?

This talk of the battery matcher boogymen swooping in to ruin LiPo is scare-mongering, and nothing more. Can we please discuss technology based on its merits, and not fear of boogymen? Thanks.
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:18 PM   #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Okay, for the sake of argument, lets say that buying matched LiPo does matter enough to justify the cost. We can cancel that part out of the discussion since it's the same on both sides. Fair enough?

Now, assuming that part is even, that still leaves LiPo with all the advantages previously discussed. There, end of discussion. See how easy that was?

This talk of the battery matcher boogymen swooping in to ruin LiPo is scare-mongering, and nothing more. Can we please discuss technology based on its merits, and not fear of boogymen? Thanks.
It is guaranteed that you will have some sort of maintainece on the battery. It is also guaranteed that some non-condoned type of charging will make the battery faster. You could dead short nicads. They gained better voltage, but lost runtime, and some packs went bad.

This is racing, and someone will figure out a way to be faster. It will, of course, be at the detriment of ease of use and longevity. This is the way it always turns out. My point is not that a new technology like lipo is necessarily bad, but that there are no free lunches. At this point there is enough concern about safety that I think indoor tracks should be afraid. Idiots are everywhere. Guys do stuff like shorting fully charged NIMH packs across the battery strap on the car. At least they don't have a metal fire when that happens. I know i am a jerk for actually being worried about this, but I am.
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:38 PM   #911
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My point about being able to use lipos is that if ROAR decides to go with 4 cell, lipos will be out for practice and club racing for those of us that plan on running regionals, nats or any of the major races that go with ROAR rules.
I dont want to use my 4 good 4200's for practice and club racing, they do have a short, high quality usable life span. If we go 4 cell, you really dont want to have to change the car around completely to use a lipo, and also be running at different speeds.
I had planned on getting a couple of lipo's, but that now too is on hold until I hear the ROAR decision.
My local hobby shop sales are on hold from a lot of concerned racers.
What's ROAR going to do ? So the cat is out of the bag, how will this effect the matchers, distributors down to what the hobby shops should stock?
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:49 PM   #912
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Wink Just think about it......

Although 4 cell rules would make it harder for Lipo guys to find their place.
Hummmmmm....?
Just thinking.
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Old 11-30-2006, 04:58 PM   #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robk
It is guaranteed that you will have some sort of maintainece on the battery. It is also guaranteed that some non-condoned type of charging will make the battery faster. You could dead short nicads. They gained better voltage, but lost runtime, and some packs went bad.

This is racing, and someone will figure out a way to be faster. It will, of course, be at the detriment of ease of use and longevity. This is the way it always turns out. My point is not that a new technology like lipo is necessarily bad, but that there are no free lunches. At this point there is enough concern about safety that I think indoor tracks should be afraid. Idiots are everywhere. Guys do stuff like shorting fully charged NIMH packs across the battery strap on the car. At least they don't have a metal fire when that happens. I know i am a jerk for actually being worried about this, but I am.

There really is no method of getting more voltage out of LIPOS. You have to understand that the charging process is not the same. It's Constant Voltage, Constant Current. Meaning you set the charger up to the cell count, and it charges at 1C until it reaches the voltage of the pack, then it keeps the voltage the same and "fills" the pack with runtime.

If you "overcharge" a pack by trying to pump more voltage into it....it blows up. Sort of a built in equalizer.
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Old 11-30-2006, 05:01 PM   #914
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I stand by what i said, and I would love to be proven wrong over the long run.

Edit:Now that I think about it, NIMH blow up too when you overcharge them, and so did NICD. Just not so spectacularly. But getting closer to the edge got more performance in a lot of cases. I doubt that the charge methods advocated by the battery manufacturers have been toyed with to the extent that guys who get things for free tend to. If they have, why not tell us about it. It would go a long way toward convincing me this is the real deal. I just think that if you are only into lipo for the "convienience" factor, you are not trying to run the cells at the limit of durability.

In the case of spontaneous combustion, fear is good.
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Last edited by robk; 11-30-2006 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 11-30-2006, 05:07 PM   #915
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Guided by fear?
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