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Old 11-29-2006, 11:00 AM   #751
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Yes, I do agree that going to 4 cells in 12th scale was a good thing

i run 12th scale and have no problems running 4-cells we run today. did you know that if a ROAR santioned asphalt race and doesn't specify "4-Cells" for 12th classes. if all it says is that "ROAR Rules apply", racers could show up to run 27T, 19T and mod with 6-cells... Could you imagine the havoc that would create in the 27T or 19T classes?

4-cell vs 6-cell wouldn't matter? as i mentioned in a previous post is this thread, it did in either 2002 or 2003 EFRA 1/12th championship were 6-cell cars ran 17T spec motors against 4-cell cars with any mod brushed motor. 17T / 6-cell cars were faster....... Havoc insued, racers complained, threatened to quit, etc. they ended up separating them
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:30 AM   #752
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Parking lot racing is the grass roots of getting people involved and going fast under total control is even more impressive if you are watching for the first time. That why people get into this hobby, plus you must love racing. I have never met a none competitor that competes ever stay in something for the fun. They will have fun but will not compete and when they start to compete and not win they quit. This is a competitive hobby that we are in and it surrounds itself around 95% of racing. How are we supossed to get people in to this hobby when you can go to radio shack buy a $50 car 6 cell pack and flies by our $1,000.00 car, we are going to look stupid.

Racers are blowing up equipment but that is because they are trying to go faster and faster, nothing wrong with that, that is just racing. I say go back to limiting the winds to 9 turns, they are still fast We all ready do spec tires and no complaints for years now. If we go 4 cells, they are already dumping, battery problens and going to lower winds. That's not the answer and stock will be just to slow.

I say run a 19t 4 cell class at one of the Carpet Nationals and mod 4 cell at the Paved Nationals and that would allow everybody to see the impotents to create these classes. That will be the test for everyone to help understand what is trying to implement. The reason is 19t on a smaller track and mod on a paved larger track is a good test for that type of motors and to prove the speeds. 19t and stock on little tacks might be o.k; but stock and 19t on big track could be very slow right now.

Then after the classes are exposed at the Nationals for everybody to see, then let the members vote on it at the middle or end of 2007. Yes, 4 cell be faster in 2 years then lets not rush to this.

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Old 11-29-2006, 11:51 AM   #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YLLIB
....... Yes, 4 cell be faster in 2 years then lets not rush to this.

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Today, 2 cells are faster than 6 cells
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Old 11-29-2006, 11:51 AM   #754
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Originally Posted by DerekB
This will piss off the oval guys...


Listen to one of the smallest segments in RC how to lead the way? Come'on Adrian, you're stretching too far for this now.

There is no motive for switching right now, other than some Factory Guys who can't win, and some "mythical" new racer who doesn't want to race Mod off the start.

Our system is set up for beginners, it's call Mains...fast guys are in the A, slower are in the Lower Mains. Novel concept at this point.

But without an reason for the change it's worthless to even talk about why it's bad. It seems like the reason changes as people counter point everything.


WE DON'T HAVE TO RACE WITH THE FASTEST MOTOR. If you have a lot of beginners at your track, start a novice class.

There are already 11 classes in electric and now we want to split again. Maybe because we have 3 people per class is why we think racing is dying. WE need 2 classes like the old days. Stock and Mod, and if you want to be proactive in new racers a beginners class.

Don't change the hobby for people that don't exist, and problems that don't. Racing sorts itself out, Mod is too fast? That's why people are racing 19-turn, maybe 19-turn should just have any motor down to 19?
I agree. At my local track we have a pro class and a novice class and it works very well. It took me awhile to get to the pro class, but starting in the novice ranks gave me a goal to achieve. Now I have some of the newer guys asking asking me questions, which is something I thought would never happen, lol. What I'm saying is, the changes aren't really necessary. Lets just race and have the fun we are having now. We have a good thing, LETS TRY NOT TO FIX IT!
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:08 PM   #755
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Wow... first it was ESC and the motors blowing up... then it went to the cars are too fast.... now its because of what BL motors might be out in 2 years
Lets see... BL is ONLY legal in mod. I haven't read anything in the minuets about making BL legal in stock and 19t.... yet we need to change NOW
Lets listen to the reasonable guys and implement Exhibition 4 cell classes this year... watch what happens in the other blocks and keep a watch on the newer technologies before we make drastic changes!
LiPo and BL are going to have to be addressed in the next year or two anyway... lets just wait a while and make a good decision.... not just impose a 4 cell bandaid.
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:10 PM   #756
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QUOTE - YLLIB: Racers are blowing up equipment but that is because they are trying to go faster and faster, nothing wrong with that, that is just racing. I say go back to limiting the winds to 9 turns, they are still fast We all ready do spec tires and no complaints for years now. If we go 4 cells, they are already dumping, battery problens and going to lower winds. That's not the answer and stock will be just to slow.

We tried this already. We ran a 10T mod limit for 2 years. Europe ran 12 turns for 3 years. We acutally burned thse motors up worse because we would gear them up and crank up the timing. When we all went back to Open mod our 8 and 7 turns we in much better shape.
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:16 PM   #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
We have seen how 4-cell worked in Japan (poorly). And have yet to see how 5-cell works in Europe. So why make a decision so soon? Why not wait and see the 5-cell results and make a decision based on what actually happens in real world races.

Exactly....look what took place in Japan...1 run battery packs. If I have to go to a race and buy packs for every single qualifier of each sedan class I enter and a couple packs for practice.....you just increased the cost of going to already out of hand cost wise national type events. As it is now I can get 2 packs per class I race and use them for the whole event and then still use them to club race with. Every SMC driver gets 2 packs per class per event and they seem to be doing just fine look at what PL did in Cleveland....Iím sure if Cleveland was 4 cell mod and 19t he would have had to have double and or tripled the amount of packs he would have needed...and he gets them for free...now look at it from a guy who wants to race mod that just made mod even more elitist and expensive as now its going to raise the cost of events exponentially.

You canít compare OVAL to Sedan Oval is 2wd and has 1 tenth the drive train weight. I can see if the change to 4 cell takes place every car manufacturer out there now looking for ways to take weight out of the drivetrain and now we will have even more of a failure rate as things will be made to last a few runs to get the most out of them with the decrease of power. Or you will see everyone again going back to Shaft drive cars for more punch and no fear of torque steer....there isnít anything wrong with this as Iím sure a change to 4 cells will bring new cars anyway.

Why doesnít ROAR just make a rule like others have stated that if you run 6 cell you weight is this.....and if you run 5 cell your weight is this....and if you run 4 cell your weight is this....then you leave it up to the racers to choose which one they want to use for a certain track. I can tell you that 4 cells on a huge track will be ridiculously boring and I bet that 5 or 4 cell is better on a smaller type track.
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Old 11-29-2006, 12:57 PM   #758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoman
Wow... first it was ESC and the motors blowing up... then it went to the cars are too fast.... now its because of what BL motors might be out in 2 years
Lets see... BL is ONLY legal in mod. I haven't read anything in the minuets about making BL legal in stock and 19t.... yet we need to change NOW
Lets listen to the reasonable guys and implement Exhibition 4 cell classes this year... watch what happens in the other blocks and keep a watch on the newer technologies before we make drastic changes!
LiPo and BL are going to have to be addressed in the next year or two anyway... lets just wait a while and make a good decision.... not just impose a 4 cell bandaid.
Once again...you need to look ahead. We have asked the motor manufacturers to present a set of rules for a Stock BL and Spec Mod BL class for the 2008 season. Novak is selling 13.5 and other motors right now. Remember how Trinity sold Paradox's and Chameleons before they were legal, before they was a calss for them? Then ROAR allowed rebuildable stocks and created a 19t class. Its all coming.

Once again fear of change driving you to stay with what you know.

As far as waiting...we are having these problems now. They are not going away magically. The racers I talk to want to know what batteries to buy, what to test on their cars right now not next summer when all our stuff is getting fried.
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:13 PM   #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Once again fear of change driving you to stay with what you know.
Once again with this comment. It trivializes all the legitimate concerns that people have. It's so out of character from your other responses. your other responses are well thought out (even though I disagree).

It's not fear of change, it's fear of changing to something that sucks.
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:18 PM   #760
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euge
Once again with this comment. It trivializes all the legitimate concerns that people have. It's so out of character from your other responses. your other responses are well thought out (even though I disagree).

It's not fear of change, it's fear of changing to something that sucks.
The thing is it dosen't suck. The people that ahve tried it and acutally made an efforst to set up thier cars for it saw that ther cars were fast, handles well and were not that much slower than on 6 cell.

There are guys in you club race A-mains that are slower on 6 cells than a guy running 4 cells in the same class with the same motor.
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:23 PM   #761
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I am just stating that the concerns that people have stated here are legitimate and if these changes are implemented, will turn off racers like myself. Correct me I'm wrong (and I may be), but I currently run stock foam TC. Sounds like under 4 cell, I'd want to run 19T or mod foam TC. From reading this thread it sounds like it's likely that I may dump running 4 cell mod TC in 5 minutes. Is this true? If so, I don't see how this doesn't become a battery war. I'm just saying for a racer of my calibur, I'm not interested in a battery war when I currently have NONE of those concerns.
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:27 PM   #762
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I should correct what I wrote. I didn't mean that 4 cell mod sucks. I meant that if the consequence of doing so creates a battery war where my 4 cell packs don't last as long as my 6 cell packs because I keep dumping....that will suck.
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:27 PM   #763
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AdrainM, So when is ROAR going to be kind enough to let us in on what cell count to buy into? Guys want to know now simply because its the end of the year and time to start getting our affairs in order for next year. I do agree with you on looking into the future, but isnt the future going to be BL and Lipo? Isnt 4 cell a step in the wrong direction since lipo's are 7.4V? Why go down in voltage to only go back up in 1-2 yrs? doesnt make sense. This will give Mfg's a new license to go out and made optimized 4 cell chassis, rake us for $400+ kits, then do it all over again in 1-2 yrs for lipo chassis. I see this cycle never ending......
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:27 PM   #764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euge
you're right, I haven't tried it. I am just stating that the concerns that people have stated here are legitimate and if these changes are implemented, will turn off racers like myself. Correct me I'm wrong (and I may be), but I currently run stock foam TC. Sounds like under 4 cell, I'd want to run 19T or mod foam TC. From reading this thread it sounds like it's likely that I may dump running 4 cell mod TC in 5 minutes. Is this true? If so, I don't see how this doesn't become a battery war. I'm just saying for a racer of my calibur, I'm not interested in a battery war when I currently have NONE of those concerns.
The thing is we are dumping in 6 cell right now! There is no diffrence. At the Reedy Race we had 1000mak left in our packs. By the Nats in Sacremento we had figured out how to use up ALL of the battery in 5 min.

No matter how many Mah you give a mod driver they will figure out how to use all of it.

You would probably run 19T 4 cell. With a 19T you could run 8 min on 4 cells if you wanted to.
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Old 11-29-2006, 01:28 PM   #765
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Well it's clear that for every "pro" argument there is a "con" argument, and it's also seems clear from Adrian's post that the EXCOM will be voting this change in without a membership vote ...so I re-iterate my post:

...So based on this, sounds like the EXCOM will be making this decision without a membership vote. So is this currently beeing voted on by the EXCOM or just beeing talked about? If it is beeing voted on, when is this going to become effective? i.e. will it be effective 01/2007 and be applicable to all the 2007 events, is it sometime later in 2007 is it for 2008?
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