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Old 11-29-2006, 09:28 AM   #736
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The Schumacher sucks on foam
Careful...It can't be that bad. Goetz finished 3rd in the "A" Main at the Champs with a Shuie.
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:34 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
Actually Foam has the biggest advantage in 4 cell.... We can alter the diameter and weight of our tires, rubber can't.... I can see people truing their foams to the rim, using them for 1 run and chucking them. Those that can afford 1 run foams can have the lowest amount of rotating mass and a bigger advantage than those who run their foams out of the box or a 59mm start....
I see your point....and that would suck. I guess I was just thinking about the punch out of the corners, or lack thereof. I can see how top speed might not be affected since you can gear up, but I'm not excited about seeing a lack of punch out of the turns.

I second Rick's idea of just waiting another year, lets see how the change goes in europe and japan. yeah, I know ROAR is saying they've done extensive testing with their "pro", but how about some more real world testing with the casual racer. Lets see how it affects the longevity of the cells. People I've talked to have said that the 4 cell packs will see more abuse than a 6 cell pack, and they will have to be replaced more frequently. Since there is less voltage, people are going to be at full throttle more often and the packs will be at a higher average amp draw over the course of the race.

I'm guessing that the pro's that have helped in the 4 cell testing aren't running these same packs over the course of a whole season.
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:35 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by TC Guy
Careful...It can't be that bad. Goetz finished 3rd in the "A" Main at the Champs with a Shuie.
Must be because all the other cars thermaled or blew winds, joking here!
They are just out of the hunt locally, 2 of them with outstanding drivers.
Weylin is a rocket, fun to watch and even more fun to tease.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:02 AM   #739
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Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
We have seen how 4-cell worked in Japan (poorly). And have yet to see how 5-cell works in Europe. So why make a decision so soon? Why not wait and see the 5-cell results and make a decision based on what actually happens in real world races.
That is a great idea but how long will we have to wait to get these results...middle of next year?

The last ROAR Sedan Nats is in July. Is a mid year rule change acceptable. We try not to do that sort of thing.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:05 AM   #740
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What about launching the proposed 4-cell rules as an exhibition class to be run at regional and Nat races...

As far as a mid-year rule change (if it is decided to go ahead)..I think that would be MUCH better than a rushed response that could adversely effect ALL TC racing..or...assess in 2007...and implement for 2008 if it is decided to go ahead.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:19 AM   #741
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From an avarage stock racer:
I'm usually in the B and on a good day I will make the A in local series races.
If stock is to be for the beginners, I will move up to 19t to run about the same speed, OK so far. The local mod racers that usually run 19t should now run mod, BUT, if as the reports look now that the batts will only go 1 or 2 runs in mod, they will run 19t at the local level, so now I am moved back to the C or D.
Great, so much for getting to make a tripple A main. !! Real good use of the investment I have made, and of the investment I will NOT be making to my local hobby shops.
Did any of this come up in your decision to make the rules change ?
Just average Fred.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:21 AM   #742
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Originally Posted by Jack Smash
My issue is not a fear of change. If it goes to 5 cell I can use the same packs in TC and offroad, if it goes 4-cell then I can use the same packs in TC and 1/12th. My fear comes from living through the battery wars of the late 80's early '90s. I remember the one run Panasonic 1700s that you needed to be competitive in 1/12th scale. If that happens with this rule change then it would be the nail in the coffin for Touring Cars.
Yes, battery wars. With current technology of IB4200, there is no need to buy matched cells....... SHV and WC loose cells are faster than my SMC 3800 now.

with 4 cell rules, matched cells will be important factors for A drivers or anyone who simply wants to go faster than others.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:28 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
That is a great idea but how long will we have to wait to get these results...middle of next year?

The last ROAR Sedan Nats is in July. Is a mid year rule change acceptable. We try not to do that sort of thing.
ROAR should look at their existing battery approval rules for guidance. If a battery has to be submitted by a certain date for lagality in the following year, a drastic change like in the maximum number of cells should follow the same basic concept. Since we are past the deadline for 2007 battery approval, wait until 2008.

Exhibition races would also be a nice idea. I suggest the carpet nats as the low speeds would noy be as evident.

I just think ROAR and R/C racing in general is going the wrong direction. We have the technology to change electric racing for the better. To me, racing at 19 turn speeds for 15 minutes or more with a 4800 LiPo battery is more appealing than running 4-cell mod at 19 turn speeds struggling to make 5 minutes.

We should be exploiting the technology available to our advantage rather than retreating into a shell.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:33 AM   #744
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since oval pan comparisons still fly.....

for those who forget...1/10 Pan Car ROAR 2006 rules still state 6 cell maximum. because of smaller tracks, 4-cells are the accepted way to run. smaller tracks are the biggest reason why even 4-cell mod isn't being run. they did lose alot of racers over this issue. however 6 Cell is still run on huge tracks.....other than the snowbirds race...it's not frontpage news.

lots of things happening in this class aren't frontpage FLASH news. from what i have seen locally... 13.5 / 4300 BL put racers at arms with the brushed 27T / 19T racers.

they once had a huge 19T class, then started running 4300 together and it was even at first, wins could go either way, until all options/upgrades from other motors were allowed on the 4300 effectively turning the tide. just like the 6 Cell to 4 Cell move many racers dropped. many thought they would conform...they didn't. 1/10 pan car with a pimped 4300 are 2-3 laps faster than 19T now. class went from 10+ 19T racers down to 3-4 4300 racers and fluctuates between 3-6 entries now

now the 27T is going thru the same thing vs. the 13.5. in our tracks first races with the 13.5. the 13.5 blew away the 27T track record which stood for almost a year by THREE laps. after that, and racers not wanting to spend money to conform didn't show for 2-weeks. stock went from 9 entires down to 2. then it was announced they would remain separate, 5 stock racers all of a sudden showed.

the Hobbyplex in Omaha, NE had a big oval race this month, turn out was drasticly lite compared to last years race. other than one spec class with 1 heat of racers...no one ran 27T or 19T. last years 27T turnout alone almost equalled this years total turnout.

OK, some may be saying by now how does all this apply to sedan?

If ROAR rules didn't cut 1/10 oval pan cars down to 4-cells, why do sedan? maybe if it's mandated it will stop a divide between racers like it did in oval?

should it be left alone like oval? let track size, race directors, race promoters decide?

i agree with Adrian, 27T and 19T racing will not be around much longer. since BL has mostly taken over 1/10 pan oval spec racing and speeds have improved in the spec classes for them.

there have been some generic response posts that stated more or less, about their tests & 4-cell has been just as fast overall as the 6-cell cars in responses to posts where other racers are talking 27T/19T, but fail to mention they are running a mod BL motor. apples and oranges. so far, most of the positive test results of going to 4-cells is Mod eqivilent BL motors have involved state/club events. all the negative results seen have involved brushed motors at a major JRMCA event which didn't allow BL motors.

how about the following:

13.5 equipped 4-cell vs. 27T 6-cell TC comparison

4300 equipped 4-cell vs. 19T 6-cell TC comparison
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:39 AM   #745
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You know, the fact that roar wants to change to 4 cell doesn't bother me. The whole Brushless thing does. I really hope that we still keep running the brushed type motors we are all running now. And to be honest, the investment will be to great to have several types of BL motors in my pit box. Do we really need to change this? If you want to keep the same speeds in stock, then how about leaving everything alone to begin with.
Also, I've been hearing that the 4-cell guys adapted to it and now everything is hunky-dory. HHMMMM, then I wonder why everyone is running touring car in my area instead of 4-cell pan car? Yes, I do agree that going to 4 cells in 12th scale was a good thing, but what happened to the 10th scale pan car? Everytime I pick up a mag and look, it's either touring car, or something nitro. I will say this, if roar messes this up, I will go nitro at one of my local dirt tracks and spend way less money than what I'm spending now. Just my thoughts on this.
If there are any guys running oval out there, I would love to hear from you. I haven't seen any tracks run oval in a long time.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:40 AM   #746
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
Off Road's problem is that they are pretty much trying to run off road on concrete!!! Actually, running on concrete would be better since you'd get more traction than this hard packed clay.... I ran off road when we rad on real dirt, with real ruts and they'd get worse during the day and that was half the fun....

Still.... I can use my 6 cell packs in any of my 10th scale vehicles... Once TC goes to 4 cell I can no longer do that....
Amen about offroad and about packs. I was going to start running Mod TC and had been working up to it. Now, Ill just do offroad. Sedan seems like too much of a joke now.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:41 AM   #747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
ROAR should look at their existing battery approval rules for guidance. If a battery has to be submitted by a certain date for lagality in the following year, a drastic change like in the maximum number of cells should follow the same basic concept. Since we are past the deadline for 2007 battery approval, wait until 2008.

Exhibition races would also be a nice idea. I suggest the carpet nats as the low speeds would noy be as evident.

I just think ROAR and R/C racing in general is going the wrong direction. We have the technology to change electric racing for the better. To me, racing at 19 turn speeds for 15 minutes or more with a 4800 LiPo battery is more appealing than running 4-cell mod at 19 turn speeds struggling to make 5 minutes.

We should be exploiting the technology available to our advantage rather than retreating into a shell.
another good point Rick! How come you are not a member of EXCOMM?????
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:49 AM   #748
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Here is what is gonna happen. Roar is going to switch to 4 cell. Then 80% of the sedan racers are going to quit and do something else. Sedan racing will be all but dead for about 2 years. Then slowly it will start to come back. Might even take longer then that. During that time offroad will blow up and have all kinds of new people racing it.


So sell your sedans, get a buggy and run mod. Go fast and have fun. Don't be slowed down because some group of people think that is what is best for you.
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:50 AM   #749
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
Listen to the oval guys. They have been through all this already and have come out the other side in much better shape.
This will piss off the oval guys...


Listen to one of the smallest segments in RC how to lead the way? Come'on Adrian, you're stretching too far for this now.

There is no motive for switching right now, other than some Factory Guys who can't win, and some "mythical" new racer who doesn't want to race Mod off the start.

Our system is set up for beginners, it's call Mains...fast guys are in the A, slower are in the Lower Mains. Novel concept at this point.

But without an reason for the change it's worthless to even talk about why it's bad. It seems like the reason changes as people counter point everything.


WE DON'T HAVE TO RACE WITH THE FASTEST MOTOR. If you have a lot of beginners at your track, start a novice class.

There are already 11 classes in electric and now we want to split again. Maybe because we have 3 people per class is why we think racing is dying. WE need 2 classes like the old days. Stock and Mod, and if you want to be proactive in new racers a beginners class.

Don't change the hobby for people that don't exist, and problems that don't. Racing sorts itself out, Mod is too fast? That's why people are racing 19-turn, maybe 19-turn should just have any motor down to 19?
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Old 11-29-2006, 10:53 AM   #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart

I just think ROAR and R/C racing in general is going the wrong direction. We have the technology to change electric racing for the better. To me, racing at 19 turn speeds for 15 minutes or more with a 4800 LiPo battery is more appealing than running 4-cell mod at 19 turn speeds struggling to make 5 minutes.

We should be exploiting the technology available to our advantage rather than retreating into a shell.
I am agree with you sir.....

I always vote for longer racing time and support new racing technology to flourish. Lipo batts and brushless are the future of EP racing. Both allow us to race like engine cars.

I wish EP cars are racing 15 minutes or so in the finals.

When people complain about overheat tires, my answer is enjoy it. Overheat tires are natural things in racing. Even Formula 1 drivers have to adjust pace and slow down when tires are not in grippy anymore. Kyosho 1/10 GP World Cup use rubber tires for 45 min final, and those racers do the same thing : slow down and be cautious when cornering.

When motor blew up ..... then find a motor that can.... eg. use brushless motors.
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