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Old 11-29-2006, 08:48 AM   #721
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You on road guys are going through the same thing we oval guys wnt through when 4-cell was introduced. We all balked at it and now most of us would not want to go back to 6-cell. tire bills go down, motor bills went down and cars got back up to 6 cell speeds from back then. overall the racing has gotten better. New people can enter the hobby and not be a danger to life and limb with power.

We've actually began running a vintage class ( body style) with 4-cells and guys love it. racing is cleaner without the constant pouinding of lexan on the boards. remember slower is faster
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Old 11-29-2006, 08:49 AM   #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TC Guy
Adrian,
Since some of your guys and some others did testing on 4 cells down there, maybe you can answer this. How much weight needed to be re-distributed on the chassis to get the car back to a balance? Speedo relocated to the right? Speedo and receiver? I know the other organizations are looking at 1350 gram minimum weight...is that realistic?
I know no one (including myself) wants to have to start thinking of buying a new car designed for 4 cell touring. Which is why I'm asking.
It all depends in the size of your onboard gear. Most guys are moving the speedo to the battery side...thats it.

So far they guys that I have seen run 4 cell have been running standard 6 cell Cyclone's, Mi2EC's, Xray T2's and Yokomo's. There is no need for new chassis and the extra cell slots are great for altering the weight distribution on the car.
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Old 11-29-2006, 08:54 AM   #723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTour
not sure how this got to be a Brushless topic, but they ARE all related.

I've been arguing w/ a few guys about the fact that a 13.5 and a 4300 B/L motor shouldn't be too far apart speed wise once you learn either one.

NoVAK rates the 13.5 at 165 Watts and the 4300 at 175 Watts.

The 4300 is rated at 4300 RPM unloaded x (1.23x6) = 31700 rpm (6 cell unloaded)
The 13.5 is rated at 3300 RPM unloaded x (1.23x6) = 24300 rpm (6 cell unloaded)

The 13.5 would require nearly a 23-24% increase in gearing to run close speeds, but should have enough power to be really close.

What's the average WATT output from a Komodo Dragon 19t good Stock motor?
You can't compare these two motors by using the peak power and max RPM numbers. You can compare them with the RPM of each motor at peak power and they will be totally different. I don't have any 4 cell data but I can dig up my 6 cell data for the 13.5 and 4300 motors to compare.
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Old 11-29-2006, 08:55 AM   #724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Smash
If 6 cell 19turn isn't too fast and 6 cell mod is, and 4 cell mod is about the same speed as 6 cell 19 turn, why not just drop mod? or leave it to the factory sponsored drivers who get their equipment for free? Seems to me the argument that this is a change for the top 20 guys in the country yet effects all of us is pretty valid.
Once again...you have to start thinking ahead. You will not be running the motors you are running today in 2 years. All indications and all testing show that speeds are going to go up drastically in the next 2 years.

4 cell is an investment in the future to make sure that the guys running stock now will have a class runnning at a similar speed in 1-2 years.

Listen to the oval guys. They have been through all this already and have come out the other side in much better shape.

The problems guys are having with all of this is a fear of change issue not a slower or faster speed issue.
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Old 11-29-2006, 08:56 AM   #725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
It all depends in the size of your onboard gear. Most guys are moving the speedo to the battery side...thats it.

So far they guys that I have seen run 4 cell have been running standard 6 cell Cyclone's, Mi2EC's, Xray T2's and Yokomo's. There is no need for new chassis and the extra cell slots are great for altering the weight distribution on the car.
here is my EC set up for 4 cells



and here is my Cyclone set up for 4 cells

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Old 11-29-2006, 08:56 AM   #726
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Adrian - If the ROAR EXCOM adopts 4 cell racing in January, when will it actually go into effect?
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Old 11-29-2006, 08:59 AM   #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Once again...you have to start thinking ahead. You will not be running the motors you are running today in 2 years. All indications and all testing show that speeds are going to go up drastically in the next 2 years.

4 cell is an investment in the future to make sure that the guys running stock now will have a class runnning at a similar speed in 1-2 years.

Listen to the oval guys. They have been through all this already and have come out the other side in much better shape.

The problems guys are having with all of this is a fear of change issue not a slower or faster speed issue.
with the cyclone you can also move the servo to the right side of the chassis if you prefer to keep the esc on the motor side
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Old 11-29-2006, 08:59 AM   #728
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My issue is not a fear of change. If it goes to 5 cell I can use the same packs in TC and offroad, if it goes 4-cell then I can use the same packs in TC and 1/12th. My fear comes from living through the battery wars of the late 80's early '90s. I remember the one run Panasonic 1700s that you needed to be competitive in 1/12th scale. If that happens with this rule change then it would be the nail in the coffin for Touring Cars.
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:09 AM   #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Once again...you have to start thinking ahead. You will not be running the motors you are running today in 2 years. All indications and all testing show that speeds are going to go up drastically in the next 2 years.

4 cell is an investment in the future to make sure that the guys running stock now will have a class running at a similar speed in 1-2 years.

Listen to the oval guys. They have been through all this already and have come out the other side in much better shape.

The problems guys are having with all of this is a fear of change issue not a slower or faster speed issue.
We have seen how 4-cell worked in Japan (poorly). And have yet to see how 5-cell works in Europe. So why make a decision so soon? Why not wait and see the 5-cell results and make a decision based on what actually happens in real world races.
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:16 AM   #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Yup, have seen them run, have a team driver testing for Novak right now and he has confirmed 13.5 with sinterd rotor on 6 cells is about the same speed as a 19T. Keep in mind you can gear WAY up once you use the sintered rotor and that the motor temp sensor can be disabled (blue wire) as the max temp for the sintered rotor is way higher than the max temp on the bonded rotor.

On 4 cells and geared way up is about the same speed as 27T stock.
If that test was done by Weylin, it's not a good indicator of what the BL can do.
The Schumacher sucks on foam, it might be a rocket on rubber, but on foam it got laped by Korey driving my old T2, more than once.

If you want to change the rules, it needs to be tested by many people, and all around the country under all kinds of conditions.
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:18 AM   #731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
The problems guys are having with all of this is a fear of change issue not a slower or faster speed issue.
This statement trivializes the whole issue. Yes, people fear change, but there have been many people here with legitimate concerns.
The one thing we can all agree on is that 4 cell will have less acceleration than 6 cell. How much testing has there been with 4 cell 19T foam TC?
I can see the lack of acceleration affecting oval to a lesser degree since they maintain roughly the same speed all the way around the track.
With a road course layout, and with foam tires, I can see 4 cell TC being utterly boring. I just see it affecting foam TC racing to a greater degree than oval racing or even rubber TC racing (which is a bit different driving style).
I can see 4 cell TC killing off foam TC racing, which is not good.
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:22 AM   #732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
I hear you.

Off road is the real problem. 90% of off road track have zero traction compared on road. As a result they are not having the same issues we are. Only 4WD Mod buggies on blue groove tracks are running into motor and speedo trouble. In 2wd Mod Buggy and Truck many drivers are running 5 cells on their own because it faster and easier to drive.

As far as RTR. The companies I have talked to have no problems with 4 cell. They say all they need to do is spec a lower wind motor. From a maintanance point of view 4 cell RTR is way better because brush and comm wear is drastically reduced. Production costs for the companies that include packs with the RTR kits are also lower.
Off Road's problem is that they are pretty much trying to run off road on concrete!!! Actually, running on concrete would be better since you'd get more traction than this hard packed clay.... I ran off road when we rad on real dirt, with real ruts and they'd get worse during the day and that was half the fun....

Still.... I can use my 6 cell packs in any of my 10th scale vehicles... Once TC goes to 4 cell I can no longer do that....

Many of the basher crowd are going LiPo... When you start spec'ing TC's for 4 cell you lose these guys....
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:24 AM   #733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
You can't compare these two motors by using the peak power and max RPM numbers. You can compare them with the RPM of each motor at peak power and they will be totally different. I don't have any 4 cell data but I can dig up my 6 cell data for the 13.5 and 4300 motors to compare.
If we were talking brushed motors you would be 100% correct. However, with brushless motors think get a little screwy.

The wind of a BL motor is not as important an identifier of what its max power output will be. All of Novak's BL motor have near the same Km value (torque constant). They mainly vary in Kv (rpm constant, or rpm per volt) and inductance.

Km is limited by rotor magent size, air gap, stator diameter, stator length. When using the same rotors the 13.5 and 4300 are pretty much identical in Km.

Motors with the same Km can perform near identically even with different Kv values.

Example:

I have two helicopter motors. They are the same size from the same company but one is 2500kv and the other is 3400Kv. The 2500kv motor with a 15T pinon will fly my helicopter the same as the 3400kv motor on a 12T pinion. The perform identically, same samp draw, same main rotor rpm, same power and pop. How can this be? They both have near identical Km figures and although that are diffrent winds they perform the same.

What this means is that there is not a lot of difference between the 13.5 and the 4300, just the inductance of the different winds which are pretty close. The 4300 should only be a tiny bit faster than a 13.5.
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:25 AM   #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
We have seen how 4-cell worked in Japan (poorly). And have yet to see how 5-cell works in Europe. So why make a decision so soon? Why not wait and see the 5-cell results and make a decision based on what actually happens in real world races.
thats a great idea!!
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:26 AM   #735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euge
This statement trivializes the whole issue. Yes, people fear change, but there have been many people here with legitimate concerns.
The one thing we can all agree on is that 4 cell will have less acceleration than 6 cell. How much testing has there been with 4 cell 19T foam TC?
I can see the lack of acceleration affecting oval to a lesser degree since they maintain roughly the same speed all the way around the track.
With a road course layout, and with foam tires, I can see 4 cell TC being utterly boring. I just see it affecting foam TC racing to a greater degree than oval racing or even rubber TC racing (which is a bit different driving style).
I can see 4 cell TC killing off foam TC racing, which is not good.
Actually Foam has the biggest advantage in 4 cell.... We can alter the diameter and weight of our tires, rubber can't.... I can see people truing their foams to the rim, using them for 1 run and chucking them. Those that can afford 1 run foams can have the lowest amount of rotating mass and a bigger advantage than those who run their foams out of the box or a 59mm start....
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