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Old 11-28-2006, 11:33 AM   #601
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For Rick,

Nobody running 19T currently wants to run 4 cell mod because of a battery war for run time. Nobody has that problem right now in 19T and you really don't "HAVE TO" have that last .04v to be competitive.

4 cell mod = battery run time war to achieve 19t speeds....

No thanks...
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:33 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by BullFrog
Guess what I'm on that committee and I on here.
BullFrog---- Bill Fraden
Thanks for stepping up Bill, now can you tell us why.
Thanks, Fred
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:37 AM   #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova F1 Racer
I think 4 cells is the tip of the iceburg........

Last weekend at the local track I race at a young boy ( about 10 or 11 )and his mom was watching and he was really getting into it.

They started talking to me and I gave them the low down on starting with basic RC car, chager, batteries and radio.... Then when the boy was watching the track she asked me these questions....

Is this the basic equipment?

I said no...

She asked roughly how much for the car? x-ray T2 $400
The 2 chargers ? CE turbo35BL $250 each 500
power supply rivergate 30 AMP 120
Radio? Spectrum 250
motor and ESC Trinity blue 40 and GTX 160 100
Batteries 3 packs of 4300 200
Tools? solder iron, light, toolbox, tools,etc 300
Spare parts 130
-------
Total $2000

She looked at me, shook her head and asked me if my wife knew how much it costs?

I said the lovely Donna has an idea but may not know exactly how much higher it actually is.

She says she try to get her son to get into a different hobby, one that does not costs so much... I told her to look at the RTR to start out on and see ir he really wants to be in this hobby... I said for $250 he can get a good setup to start. She went out to the hobby shop and came back later and said she would think about it...

Now it seems that going to 4 cells is really a small matter comparing to the costs of trying to be competitive.....

Sorry if this really doen't follow this thread but I think there are some bigger issues that ROAR and us racers need to be concerned about if we want this hobby to grow....
Looking at your equipments........ Going 4 cells doesn't mean savings j/k

My advice: Race with what you have !!! Nevermind with other's equipments...... just drive and have some fun !!! I respect people with less equipments but can win(s)
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:37 AM   #604
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and people wonder why 540 racing (in its various forms) is still abundant and prolly gainin in popularity. at the

club last wkend...myself and the crew went out. most fun i had was foolin around sortin out trims on a kid's tamiya spec and the rest w/their 1/12s battlin for 10min+ in open practice (holiday off from racing)...

...sadly i still have to remind myself that this is for fun. gimme 4, gimme 6. whateva motor geared well (or fixed gear). i dont care. just wanna run and have fun.

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Old 11-28-2006, 11:46 AM   #605
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This is not a discussion that is being driven from the Electric On Road Comittee. Recently we have been been tasked with a discussion on the subject, we ( On Road Comittee) have not forwarded any suggestions to the EXCOMM at this point. So to answer your question, the Electric On Road Committee is not considering any change, we are discussing a change at the direction of the EXCOMM.

Now, I cannot speculate EXACTLY why the EXCOMM wants this change, but this is what I do know.

1. The voltage we are using right now, is much higher then it ever has been in 6 cell racing. Racers have seen issues with too much power going through the current electronics.
2. This is in no way directed at Lipo's, it just happens that the current Lipo's are not the proper voltage if we change the cell count.
3. The committee has a healthy discussion on this topic, and have no direction or plan to wrap it up in any time frame.
4.As a side effect, moving to 4 cells could help out another issue we are discussing, Pro racers in Stock ,and no good class, driven form the top... for beginnners...
5. We have seens suggesitons across the board, even including body changes to allow for cooling holes...
6. No matter what the ultimate decision is, it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't problem. yes cars are faster then they have ever been, yes we have problem getting new people into on road, yes we do nto have a good ranking or seeding system in place right now, yes we have too many big races that help to push the standard rules around a bit, yes we have not had stellar leadership at ROAR in the past, yes making a change to the industry standard battery package could be painful.

BUT ....


What is the right tact to fix the issues ???

BTW, I am the Chairman of the Electric On Road Comittee

any questions, feel free to email me, or give me call.

http://www.roarracing.com/director.php




Quote:
Originally Posted by C_O_jones
Will someone from the ROAR electric comittee PLEASE tell us why you are considering the change to 4 cell !

There must be somewhat of a good reason to do this, tell us!

Are we all just banging our heads against the wall for your enjoyment ???
When some of the top drivers cant figure out why YOU are doing this, how do you expect us mere mortals to understand your reasoning ?

Fred
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:46 AM   #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Local tracks will always have to cater to their beginners with classes they see fit to include in their racing programs, regardless of ROAR rules. If a Tamiya TA05 and Losi XXX-S can in fact be made to run with anyone, so can an X-Ray T2 with a 6-cell chassis against a theoretical T2 4-cell special version. The shop just has to sell the guy a 4-cell pack and receiver battery with his RTR rather than a 6-cell pack. With probably very little difference in price.

Also my point is that electric cars will really not be slower. A single class will be slower, but you have to look at new classes from a different perspective. Let's say you race stock. You could also look at it as the 25mph 11.2 sec lap time class (as an example). Put 4-cells in your car and the 25mph 11.2 sec class may require a 19 T motor. Does it really matter what the class is called? Or that you are enjoying your R/C car at a speed you are comfortable and happy with?

This could be the time to separate pros into a separate class. Then you will be racing the same speed against the same drivers. So is there really any difference?
So they make X-Ray T-2s in RTR version? Uh..that would be no. Not the same thing. I said specifically, those of us who have bought RTR cars, upgraded them a little to make them more competitive and have already spent the money on 6-cell packs will HAVE to buy all new stuff. That drives those of us new to the hobby now away. I said it might bring more back later but it won't be the same ones driven away...for the most part.

Now onto the "will really not be slower" part. I realize that 19T would be the new STOCK speed but...what about those who've invested a lot of money in 27T current stock motors???? WE WILL BE SLOWER!!!! Yes, we can step up to 19T at a great cost to ourselves to keep the speed, otherwise we would be taking a huge step backwards instead of forwards. Maybe that's all well and good for you, who's been in the hobby for 25 year or more but for those of us new to it...it hurts. I'm not rich, it would take me MONTHS to get the money together to "upgrade" my car to go the same speed again.

One more thing...If the point really is that electric cars will really not be slower....then why would they change it???? If things aren't going to get faster...and things aren't going to get slower...then why force the industry into such a drastic change if things are really going to just stay the same???

Oh yeah...my favorite..."The shop just has to sell the guy a 4-cell pack and receiver battery with his RTR rather than a 6-cell pack. With probably very little difference in price."...better be a pretty good difference in price if I'm getting less. Sorry, not into paying almost the same price for a lot less...

How about we just change class designations rather than force all the manufacturers to change what they make, which is what this would do.
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:48 AM   #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Also my point is that electric cars will really not be slower. A single class will be slower, but you have to look at new classes from a different perspective. Let's say you race stock. You could also look at it as the 25mph 11.2 sec lap time class (as an example). Put 4-cells in your car and the 25mph 11.2 sec class may require a 19 T motor. Does it really matter what the class is called? Or that you are enjoying your R/C car at a speed you are comfortable and happy with?
Well if we have to go 4 cell...and I am against 4cell... we have to get a class to replace 19t. Mod will not replace a class were we all ran a spec motor and yet could run close to mod lap times. I don't want to run 4 cell mod and be forced to run 6 turn motors to keep up and worry about dumping and ruining my packs. I would want a spec motor class as fast as 6 cell 19t with out the battery management hassles.... but from what I read posted by guys who tried 4 cell.... it isnt possible
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:56 AM   #608
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4 cell will effictively get rid of stock motors and stock tuners overnight....

My track runs stock because the track is too small to run anything else occasionally we have a flowing layout that we can run 19 turn... Believe me, we've all tried at one point or another to run a mod motor at one time on it....

If this becomes the rule and the 4 cell chassis's start replacing the 6 cell I can pretty much guarantee we will have zero turnout... While we could all run 19 turns instead of stockers, when we get the layout we could have run 19's on before, are we supposed to come up with an agreement on a mod motor to run???

This rule is probaby great for the hardcore racers, it will be disastrous for the clubs....

What you sponsored guys seem to forget is you are a representative for the companies you run for.... You are supposed to be out there showing us how great the products you run are so that we (the unsponsored consumer) goes out and buys it.... When the line becomes so great between the sponsored and unsponsored you are doing nothing more than costing the companies more than you are worth....

We have the unbeatable guy around here, he has the time to practice, the sponsors and the drive to take this seriously... 4 cells or 6 he's still going to TQ and win.... Honestly, it isn't even worth it for the weekend warrior to go out and race anymore... You get more for your money paying $15 for a practice day then $30 for a trophy race that is impossible to win....
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:56 AM   #609
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Quote:
5. We have seens suggesitons across the board, even including body changes to allow for cooling holes...
WoW!! imagine that, doing something that costs $0 and makes a lot of sense. I want to see the nitro guys run without cooling holes.

Quote:
1. The voltage we are using right now, is much higher then it ever has been in 6 cell racing. Racers have seen issues with too much power going through the current electronics.
Look at the size of current ESC's.... dumb design to say the least. It isn't the voltage that kills things, it is the stupid user of the power!!
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:58 AM   #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova F1 Racer
I think 4 cells is the tip of the iceburg........

Last weekend at the local track I race at a young boy ( about 10 or 11 )and his mom was watching and he was really getting into it.

They started talking to me and I gave them the low down on starting with basic RC car, chager, batteries and radio.... Then when the boy was watching the track she asked me these questions....

Is this the basic equipment?

I said no...

She asked roughly how much for the car? x-ray T2 $400
The 2 chargers ? CE turbo35BL $250 each 500
power supply rivergate 30 AMP 120
Radio? Spectrum 250
motor and ESC Trinity blue 40 and GTX 160 100
Batteries 3 packs of 4300 200
Tools? solder iron, light, toolbox, tools,etc 300
Spare parts 130
-------
Total $2000

She looked at me, shook her head and asked me if my wife knew how much it costs?

I said the lovely Donna has an idea but may not know exactly how much higher it actually is.

She says she try to get her son to get into a different hobby, one that does not costs so much... I told her to look at the RTR to start out on and see ir he really wants to be in this hobby... I said for $250 he can get a good setup to start. She went out to the hobby shop and came back later and said she would think about it...

Now it seems that going to 4 cells is really a small matter comparing to the costs of trying to be competitive.....

Sorry if this really doen't follow this thread but I think there are some bigger issues that ROAR and us racers need to be concerned about if we want this hobby to grow....

You did what every racer should NOT DO, you never tell them you have over $2,000 invested. That kids would do the same witha $250 TC4 RTR as he would with your aluminum bling race car. Pride of how much you spent should never be told to somebody looking in.

Explaining to them you can start off cheap, and build up was the right thing. But it's also like going to a real car race where they have production cars...that 350Z in the SCCA runoffs cost over $150,000 but yet it's base on a 27K car.


Rick has some points as a racer, they will race everything. But this affects more than just the racer. The industry is 6-Cell based, and that should not change. Those "racecars" we are paid to drive around are paid for by the guys who never race. The day a person cannot BUY what they are racing is the day both sides suffer.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:01 PM   #611
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Hey I am all for leaving it as is, I don't see any problems other than factory drivers sandbagging in stock and 19T.

The F... ROAR attitude does bother me even though I am not their biggest fan. Lose ROAR, and we lose RC Racing. Simple fact.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:01 PM   #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter
This is not a discussion that is being driven from the Electric On Road Comittee. Recently we have been been tasked with a discussion on the subject, we ( On Road Comittee) have not forwarded any suggestions to the EXCOMM at this point. So to answer your question, the Electric On Road Committee is not considering any change, we are discussing a change at the direction of the EXCOMM.

Now, I cannot speculate EXACTLY why the EXCOMM wants this change, but this is what I do know.

1. The voltage we are using right now, is much higher then it ever has been in 6 cell racing. Racers have seen issues with too much power going through the current electronics.
2. This is in no way directed at Lipo's, it just happens that the current Lipo's are not the proper voltage if we change the cell count.
3. The committee has a healthy discussion on this topic, and have no direction or plan to wrap it up in any time frame.
4.As a side effect, moving to 4 cells could help out another issue we are discussing, Pro racers in Stock ,and no good class, driven form the top... for beginnners...
5. We have seens suggesitons across the board, even including body changes to allow for cooling holes...
6. No matter what the ultimate decision is, it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't problem. yes cars are faster then they have ever been, yes we have problem getting new people into on road, yes we do nto have a good ranking or seeding system in place right now, yes we have too many big races that help to push the standard rules around a bit, yes we have not had stellar leadership at ROAR in the past, yes making a change to the industry standard battery package could be painful.

BUT ....


What is the right tact to fix the issues ???

BTW, I am the Chairman of the Electric On Road Comittee

any questions, feel free to email me, or give me call.

http://www.roarracing.com/director.php
Thanks Tim, gives us a better insight into the workings of ROAR and alows us to direct the discussion towards the EXCOM.
Fred
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:01 PM   #613
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And again, OPEN MODIFIED, allows you to run what ever you want. You want to run a motor that you can't handle or your ESC cannot...it's your choice to blow it up.

IT also allows you to change motors to adjust for tracks and driving style. If you're 13-turn is too slow, you can swap the arm out and go faster. It takes motor and battery out of the equation. In stock and 19-turn we all run the same motor.


But again, this isn't about speed, it's about an industry standard. Half the problem is we can't agree on anything. But ROAR should NOT be making decisions for the industry.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:02 PM   #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
You did what every racer should NOT DO, you never tell them you have over $2,000 invested. That kids would do the same witha $250 TC4 RTR as he would with your aluminum bling race car. Pride of how much you spent should never be told to somebody looking in.

Explaining to them you can start off cheap, and build up was the right thing. But it's also like going to a real car race where they have production cars...that 350Z in the SCCA runoffs cost over $150,000 but yet it's base on a 27K car.


Rick has some points as a racer, they will race everything. But this affects more than just the racer. The industry is 6-Cell based, and that should not change. Those "racecars" we are paid to drive around are paid for by the guys who never race. The day a person cannot BUY what they are racing is the day both sides suffer.
I wouldnt be bragging so much about a 350Z
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:04 PM   #615
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This voltage issue is a joke, how much have we really gained in voltage? .1-.2 volts over 10 years of cell development. I don't even think people understand that it's the IR that is allowing us to get so much power from the cell and not the voltage.

Back in the day you were limited by that, you could have lots of volts, but if you couldn't pull more than 50 amps from the cell, you weren't frying stuff.

It's like the misunderstanding that lower voltage is better, but if you understand how electricity works it's the oppposite direction that we really need to go.
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