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Old 11-28-2006, 09:54 AM   #586
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The problem your talking about two different racers. Those that go to big races and the local racers. At most club dilluting the racers to an entry car is very hard. The customer comes into the hobby shop and they want something fast.If they get an entry level car step up the more experienced drivers with laugh at the new guys telling them I don't race that junk. If not in those words - it very similiar.I seen these over the years at my local tracks. Or the hobby shop will sell them something that nobody races and tells the the opposite.
You've got to get something that the average new racers can control .Even the experienced racers in stock move up and now they go from winning to back of the pack. Mod TC is getting to fast and needs to slow do some. Still what we do now will only last for awhile before the speeds will again get to the point we are now at.
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Old 11-28-2006, 10:00 AM   #587
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Longer races dont help with the wear on electronics. You will now be pushing more power through the car, over a longer period of time. Instead of running mod and having 600 - 800mah left in the pack after a run you will use it all and barely finish the run. Now you have introduced a battery war with high runtime numbers bringing a premium on the retail market and needing new packs all the time. It's not the voltage and IR that takes a hit when we abuse our packs its the capacity.



No one has come on here to specifically state what the goal is that ROAR is trying to achieve with the switch to 4-cell. Is it to help the Mod A-main guys keep their equipment from blowing up? Is it to try to slow the cars down for safety reasons? Is it to make racing cheaper? What other options are being considered to achieve whatever it is that ROAR is trying to achieve?

I think Derek is right on with the his argument over changing against the industry standard 6-cell format for touring cars. This is my biggest disagreement with this proposed change.
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Old 11-28-2006, 10:20 AM   #588
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In real world of racing, no one is racing only 5 minutes in final. .... it's just plain too fast. Once a driver made mistake, that's it !!! not enough time to regain his position. Is this racing ? If time is given longer, it will be different story.

Motor burns ? ---> switch to higher turns or use a motor that can.
Overheat tires ? ---> Some GP racers are still racing with rubber tires like Sorex and Take Off, and they race bravely for 45 minutes in final. Do you feel lucky now racing only 5 minutes ? ...... so plz check your car setup. ( edit: BTW..... overheat tires are natural things to happen in real racing, it test your ability to adapt changes ).

IF ROAR wants to attract newbies or keep existing racers, please do something that makes EASIER to drive for regulars and newbies. For examples, tires need new regulation. eg. 26mm width or just switch to foams.

Easier to drive is fun, and it is bigger fun when less tuning equipments & less complicated tuning know hows are involved. I think 'easy' and 'fun' are everyone's self confidence & self motivation to turn up on race events.

Just IMO.....
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Old 11-28-2006, 10:29 AM   #589
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From my own perspective as a modified class racer, I don't like the fact I am being made to slow down. I think that what makes modified great is the fact we are testing the limits of driving skill and equipment performance. it is the pinnacle of the hobby and too many restrictions make it less interesting to me.

I believe most of the equipment failures come from driver's and their support crew's (motor tuners) poor choices. This means that the drivers use too much brake, drive too hard, or are given components that are doomed to fail because they do not match that driver's driving style and durability requirements.

I am a racer, and have been a racer for nearly 25 years with most of those raced at the pro level. I continue to race as a pro and have owned or worked for motor/battery companies for over 20 years. I have seen ,many changes and have raced TCs from the ABSOLUTE beginning. I have opinions about why it is less popular, but they can be saved for another thread.

As far a 4-cell goes, it is what it is and I will race regardless. The most important thing is unification. The best thing the other outlaw races (Snowbirds, IIC) could do for the future of the class is to embrace these rules whether they like them or not. They use just about every other ROAR rule, why not use them all? I know the promotors of many races have huge egos and do not want to share the glory with ROAR, but all races should follow a single rules format and ROAR is what we have.

The only racers that have any right to complain about possible speed reduction are modified class racers. Modified racers have NO choice, they WILL be slower, and can do nothing about it. Those that are only interested in the speed of their cars can step up a class. Stock too slow for you now? Race 19T. 19T too slow? Race modified. Your actual lap times will likely be affected in no way whatsoever. We could even continue with a 6-cell class for factory drivers and as a side benefit protect 19-turn and stock driver's feelings and self esteem because they may not be the biggest fish in the pond any more.

While I do not like the idea of changing to 4-cell, the amount of people it affects is so small. I orginally liked the 6-cell "standard" (RTR, stick packs), but realize and preach that R/C racing is its own hobby apart from R/C cars. Rules should be made to protect racing's best interest. The guy buying the 6-cell RTR is not racing ROAR races anyway, so the local track can make classes to accomodate these few.

So I am in support of 4-cells only if done across the board in all classes at all events.
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Old 11-28-2006, 10:36 AM   #590
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Rick has some very good points..and you have to respect what he as a veteran says.

I have alot of outlooks and reasons that would take me to long to type
so my opinion (even though it doesnt really matter) is that TC going to 4 cell is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard...I mean come on slowing the cars down????? unbelievable...

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Old 11-28-2006, 10:51 AM   #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STLNLST
All you points are dead on but my question to you is this. Are we as racers that STUPID that we don't know when we have too much motor?
I wouldn't say stupid, but many times people run more motor than they should. The problem comes from the mindset that you have to have the fastest car on the straight..but goes out the window once they get into the infield. I for one really want to see 4-cell work. What I am surprised to see is that no-one has suggested to have 19T become the standard "Stock" class, and have the current 27T stock motors become the motors for the sportsman classes. The only bummer I see is the LiPo issue, but I'm sure that LiPo or LiIon manufacturers can eventually come up with something to bridge the gap.

As a side benefit, going to 4 cells may also boost the number of entrants in the 1/12th scale classes. You would no-longer need 2-different battery configurations for sedans and 1/12th scale, making it easier and reducing the barrier to entry.
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:02 AM   #592
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I think 4 cells is the tip of the iceburg........

Last weekend at the local track I race at a young boy ( about 10 or 11 )and his mom was watching and he was really getting into it.

They started talking to me and I gave them the low down on starting with basic RC car, chager, batteries and radio.... Then when the boy was watching the track she asked me these questions....

Is this the basic equipment?

I said no...

She asked roughly how much for the car? x-ray T2 $400
The 2 chargers ? CE turbo35BL $250 each 500
power supply rivergate 30 AMP 120
Radio? Spectrum 250
motor and ESC Trinity blue 40 and GTX 160 100
Batteries 3 packs of 4300 200
Tools? solder iron, light, toolbox, tools,etc 300
Spare parts 130
-------
Total $2000

She looked at me, shook her head and asked me if my wife knew how much it costs?

I said the lovely Donna has an idea but may not know exactly how much higher it actually is.

She says she try to get her son to get into a different hobby, one that does not costs so much... I told her to look at the RTR to start out on and see ir he really wants to be in this hobby... I said for $250 he can get a good setup to start. She went out to the hobby shop and came back later and said she would think about it...

Now it seems that going to 4 cells is really a small matter comparing to the costs of trying to be competitive.....

Sorry if this really doen't follow this thread but I think there are some bigger issues that ROAR and us racers need to be concerned about if we want this hobby to grow....
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:06 AM   #593
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Will someone from the ROAR electric comittee PLEASE tell us why you are considering the change to 4 cell !

There must be somewhat of a good reason to do this, tell us!

Are we all just banging our heads against the wall for your enjoyment ???
When some of the top drivers cant figure out why YOU are doing this, how do you expect us mere mortals to understand your reasoning ?

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Old 11-28-2006, 11:09 AM   #594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C_O_jones
Will someone from the ROAR electric comittee PLEASE tell us why you are considering the change to 4 cell !

There must be somewhat of a good reason to do this, tell us!

Are we all just banging our heads against the wall for your enjoyment ???
When some of the top drivers cant figure out why YOU are doing this, how do you expect us mere mortals to understand your reasoning ?

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Old 11-28-2006, 11:10 AM   #595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
The guy buying the 6-cell RTR is not racing ROAR races anyway, so the local track can make classes to accomodate these few.
Really? I did, I think and so do a LOT of others. Everyone starts somewhere. Team-Losi XXX-S and Tamiya TA05 are both RTR that can be upgraded and run right with almost anyone. So if they make these changes...the guy who BOUGHT the RTR and uses that 6-cell car to race today will have to buy a new chassis, new batteries...etc... Basically this will drive out those of us who have recently gotten into the hobby. It might bring in new people later but only after driving a bunch out first. If electric cars were slower...I would have raced nitro. Nobody wants to race a car that's running slower than the Radio Shack special. Speed drew me to the hobby and speed will keep me here. If I'm going to have to buy all new stuff and move up a couple classes just to keep the speed...then nitro it is. I'm sure others agree too. Nobody wants to go slower, that's not racing.
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:18 AM   #596
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Think of it this way, now we just have to buy two more things to race TC, a receiver pack and a charger for it! That comes out to more money than the other two cells. If people are having electronics problems now, just wait until the current draw goes up and motor turns go down. what a joke
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:20 AM   #597
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Changing Roar to 4-cell would be idiotic and makes absolutely no since at all. You run 4-cells with 5 turn motors to try and pretend to be as fast as six cells and still the cars are way way slow. Watch the video from Yatabe very very lame. You BLOW UP MORE MOTORS AND BATTERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no way to save money at all. If you run all 4cell classes, what is that goin to do to the prices of the battery packs? If there is no more six cell classes then you will have price rising 4 cell packs that have to be charged by each indidual cell and will probably last about 1-2 runs. I have run 4-cell Modified with Foam tires and a 7x1, the laptimes are equal or slower than a six cell touring car with a 19turn motor. Have the laptimes to prove it. Oh well slower cars, worse battery wars, more expensive and less durable 4-cell packs, oh yeah and did I mention SLOW CARS
What is it with the presidents in this country. Always making dumb and wrong decisions. Lets make 1/8 on-road cars run .049 motors to and off-road buggies have to peel it through "sippy" holes with gators in them WAY TO GO ROAR!!! For those of you in the rc industry who didnt vote EDDIE O for president, thank you for ruining the countries racing if we go to 4-cell. If you cant handle a touring car with six cells then make another class for hand eye coordination impared racers. Instead of changing the structure of the classes the structure of Roar needs to be changed to provide better events in better venues and put on better races with better race directors. Roar is are National Sanctioning Body and we need better events, like what Scotty Earnst puts on. We are here for the hobby, but we need to make it grow. Lets be successful and try to expand like Nascar. 4-cell will not help that in any way......



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Old 11-28-2006, 11:25 AM   #598
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:25 AM   #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
Really? I did, I think and so do a LOT of others. Everyone starts somewhere. Team-Losi XXX-S and Tamiya TA05 are both RTR that can be upgraded and run right with almost anyone. So if they make these changes...the guy who BOUGHT the RTR and uses that 6-cell car to race today will have to buy a new chassis, new batteries...etc... Basically this will drive out those of us who have recently gotten into the hobby. It might bring in new people later but only after driving a bunch out first. If electric cars were slower...I would have raced nitro. Nobody wants to race a car that's running slower than the Radio Shack special. Speed drew me to the hobby and speed will keep me here. If I'm going to have to buy all new stuff and move up a couple classes just to keep the speed...then nitro it is. I'm sure others agree too. Nobody wants to go slower, that's not racing.
Local tracks will always have to cater to their beginners with classes they see fit to include in their racing programs, regardless of ROAR rules. If a Tamiya TA05 and Losi XXX-S can in fact be made to run with anyone, so can an X-Ray T2 with a 6-cell chassis against a theoretical T2 4-cell special version. The shop just has to sell the guy a 4-cell pack and receiver battery with his RTR rather than a 6-cell pack. With probably very little difference in price.

Also my point is that electric cars will really not be slower. A single class will be slower, but you have to look at new classes from a different perspective. Let's say you race stock. You could also look at it as the 25mph 11.2 sec lap time class (as an example). Put 4-cells in your car and the 25mph 11.2 sec class may require a 19 T motor. Does it really matter what the class is called? Or that you are enjoying your R/C car at a speed you are comfortable and happy with?

This could be the time to separate pros into a separate class. Then you will be racing the same speed against the same drivers. So is there really any difference?
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Old 11-28-2006, 11:31 AM   #600
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Advil, this is where I got my info, post #22.
Way to much of a rumor to make any positive decisions on.
Quote:
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This is precisely why heresay is dangerous. There is no rule at this point, and the EXCOMM is contiplating a move to 4 cell. Matt Howard said it best in the other threaad that was started on this topic... Damned if you do, Damned if you dont. The Electric on road committe has been in discussion on the 4-5-6 cell topic for a while now, and there have been no definitive suggestions forwarded to the EXCOMM on this subject.

The sky is not falling, but we do need to take a step back and look at our hobby...

My personal opinion is 5 cell. taking the edge off the voltage, and not making stock TOO slow... But it will help the professional stock racers move up to 19t and help stock to be the class it was intended to be.

Alot of other discussions to have, but ..... what hte topic of this thread is.... is NOT a rule yet...
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