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Old 11-28-2006, 12:27 AM   #571
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Those laptime show nothing more than the track was too small for mod racing. It's like trying to take a fullblown race car with a race-breed LSD and trying to run on a Auto-Cross circuit. My 350Z is too big and too powerful to be fast a track full of cones, which is why a Miata with half the power will be faster. Does that mean I kill the power in my car? No I run where it will be able to shine, and bring the right tool to the AutoX.

If you're faster with a 19T than you are with a 6-turn, then guess what you should run! A 19T. Nowhere have i read that MODIFIED has to have the lowest most insane motor in it, it just removes restrictions. I used to race off-road back in the day with a Crappy SpeedGem 14-turn. Worked great indoors, when I got outside to a larger track, I still won, but down the straight it looked like I had a stock motor...I can still hear Chris Marcey at Madness annoucing "There goes Derek with his stock motor" but because I drove better and hit all the right lines even though I was half as fast I still kicked everybodies ass. The ONLY reason I switched is because I felt stupid on the straight.


What I don't get is that we keep caring if modified goes away. It seems that 19T is the class to run, and stock (which I can't understand anybody saying it's fast) is the semi pro. What we need is a new "beginner" class.

Like mentioned before one of the main problems is a ranking system and not the speed. We don't need to play with current range of speed, we need a system to allow racers to advance.

We dance around the real problems all freaking day. NItro off-road is full of new people, and the hottest segment (has been for years) ALL the cars are too fast for 90% of the people...but it keeps growing, no limits on anything, no spec tires.

Think about WHY that segment is strong, and retaining people and why others aren't. Messing with some standard just adds another hole to the bottom of sinking ship.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:45 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by DerekB
Those laptime show nothing more than the track was too small for mod racing. It's like trying to take a fullblown race car with a race-breed LSD and trying to run on a Auto-Cross circuit. My 350Z is too big and too powerful to be fast a track full of cones, which is why a Miata with half the power will be faster. Does that mean I kill the power in my car? No I run where it will be able to shine, and bring the right tool to the AutoX.

If you're faster with a 19T than you are with a 6-turn, then guess what you should run! A 19T. Nowhere have i read that MODIFIED has to have the lowest most insane motor in it, it just removes restrictions. I used to race off-road back in the day with a Crappy SpeedGem 14-turn. Worked great indoors, when I got outside to a larger track, I still won, but down the straight it looked like I had a stock motor...I can still hear Chris Marcey at Madness annoucing "There goes Derek with his stock motor" but because I drove better and hit all the right lines even though I was half as fast I still kicked everybodies ass. The ONLY reason I switched is because I felt stupid on the straight.


What I don't get is that we keep caring if modified goes away. It seems that 19T is the class to run, and stock (which I can't understand anybody saying it's fast) is the semi pro. What we need is a new "beginner" class.

Like mentioned before one of the main problems is a ranking system and not the speed. We don't need to play with current range of speed, we need a system to allow racers to advance.

We dance around the real problems all freaking day. NItro off-road is full of new people, and the hottest segment (has been for years) ALL the cars are too fast for 90% of the people...but it keeps growing, no limits on anything, no spec tires.

Think about WHY that segment is strong, and retaining people and why others aren't. Messing with some standard just adds another hole to the bottom of sinking ship.
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:02 AM   #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Those laptime show nothing more than the track was too small for mod racing. It's like trying to take a fullblown race car with a race-breed LSD and trying to run on a Auto-Cross circuit. My 350Z is too big and too powerful to be fast a track full of cones, which is why a Miata with half the power will be faster. Does that mean I kill the power in my car? No I run where it will be able to shine, and bring the right tool to the AutoX.

If you're faster with a 19T than you are with a 6-turn, then guess what you should run! A 19T. Nowhere have i read that MODIFIED has to have the lowest most insane motor in it, it just removes restrictions. I used to race off-road back in the day with a Crappy SpeedGem 14-turn. Worked great indoors, when I got outside to a larger track, I still won, but down the straight it looked like I had a stock motor...I can still hear Chris Marcey at Madness annoucing "There goes Derek with his stock motor" but because I drove better and hit all the right lines even though I was half as fast I still kicked everybodies ass. The ONLY reason I switched is because I felt stupid on the straight.


What I don't get is that we keep caring if modified goes away. It seems that 19T is the class to run, and stock (which I can't understand anybody saying it's fast) is the semi pro. What we need is a new "beginner" class.

Like mentioned before one of the main problems is a ranking system and not the speed. We don't need to play with current range of speed, we need a system to allow racers to advance.

We dance around the real problems all freaking day. NItro off-road is full of new people, and the hottest segment (has been for years) ALL the cars are too fast for 90% of the people...but it keeps growing, no limits on anything, no spec tires.

Think about WHY that segment is strong, and retaining people and why others aren't. Messing with some standard just adds another hole to the bottom of sinking ship.

I agree. Take the darn 6 and 7 turns out and run the 8 or 9 turn. If that one person can run a 7 and make it last then hats off to him but too many times I've seen racers run motors that was too much for the track they were running on. Most of the pro's can handle the power and some go over board. I'm done with this topic until I actually have to deal with it. Makes no sense what so ever to change the rules for guys to be able to run their 6 turns rather than make time with a 8 turn. Do racers have that option in stock and 19T?????
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Old 11-28-2006, 01:03 AM   #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Those laptime show nothing more than the track was too small for mod racing.
I think you'll find that track was the same size as virtually every larger indoor event, and larger yet than most club tracks. Meaning the problem is worse yet for clubs.

Or, it could show that the cars are finally so fast, that even the best drivers in the world can't get them around the track quite as efficiently, much less us average joes..

A car that "steps out" coming onto a straightaway will still "step out" if the straight is 80' long, or 120' long. I also feel that the level of commitment to mod is considerably higher, which is less attractive to a lot of people, even myself (but I do it anyway, and it's fun every time.. ).. And now that we finally have all the power we can stand, it's easier to see who has game, and who does not. That also takes some of the fun out of it for a few people as you can't simply blame the batterys anymore. The more ragged edge the car rides, the more that racing will be won by people with extreme talent, and extreme amounts of spare time to commit to the program.

I do like having all the power, as much as the next guy. Regardless of what happens with any rulings, we will still be here, and we will still be racing. That said, I suppose I'm more for trying to accomodate the newer racers (stock is just to fast), if pressed for a final opinion on any kind of change. But let the members help ROAR with necessary R&D. Keep us involved, let us know where you are at.

Speed attracts people, FUN keeps them in. The fun is up to you, your club, and it's members. Where racing is NOT FUN, it dies. Where it's fun, it flourishes.
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Old 11-28-2006, 03:58 AM   #575
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A short history lesson on what happend to a class that became to fast for most people to drive-1/10th pan car modified.I beleive it died at the last Nationals run at the Minregg Carpet race with only 6 entries.
Look at Stock motors now and what they were 10 years ago. Are they faster- yes.Look at the mod winds are they lower than 10 years ago- yes.Here you have experienced Drivers for the most part talking about less cells. Your not going to stop the battery guys for making less powerfull batteries. After all the power tools need more POWER to run longer.
Either the motor manufacturers can place a restriiction on themselves for motor windings- I doubt they can agree.
Placing a limit on Batteries is another way- 4-5 cells.
And finally just look who is posting and compalining on this and any thread here. A very few people and mostly the same few.If you have issues send them to the organization that is saying this- maybe they will listen?
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Old 11-28-2006, 06:41 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
I think you'll find that track was the same size as virtually every larger indoor event, and larger yet than most club tracks. Meaning the problem is worse yet for clubs.

Or, it could show that the cars are finally so fast, that even the best drivers in the world can't get them around the track quite as efficiently, much less us average joes..

A car that "steps out" coming onto a straightaway will still "step out" if the straight is 80' long, or 120' long. I also feel that the level of commitment to mod is considerably higher, which is less attractive to a lot of people, even myself (but I do it anyway, and it's fun every time.. ).. And now that we finally have all the power we can stand, it's easier to see who has game, and who does not. That also takes some of the fun out of it for a few people as you can't simply blame the batterys anymore. The more ragged edge the car rides, the more that racing will be won by people with extreme talent, and extreme amounts of spare time to commit to the program.

I do like having all the power, as much as the next guy. Regardless of what happens with any rulings, we will still be here, and we will still be racing. That said, I suppose I'm more for trying to accomodate the newer racers (stock is just to fast), if pressed for a final opinion on any kind of change. But let the members help ROAR with necessary R&D. Keep us involved, let us know where you are at.

Speed attracts people, FUN keeps them in. The fun is up to you, your club, and it's members. Where racing is NOT FUN, it dies. Where it's fun, it flourishes.
For an indoor track, Cleveland is definitely on the large side. I believe the dimensions for Cleveland were 96 x 48. Most local tracks are no bigger than 72 x 36, many are smaller. If the cars are too fast for Cleveland, they are definitely too fast for local tracks.

Speed attracts.... Sort of. Speed is always one of the first questions, but if people are seeing these missiles slamming back and forth into the lane barriers and limping off broken, how does that attract them? Our local track is in a small mall and we regularly have people stopping in to watch. You hear their reaction when there is a close race going on, not when someone is going banzai down the straight.

At this point, I'd love to tick off all the speed mongers in our hobby. If they want to quit because it's too slow, go ahead. If speed is what makes our hobby interesting, why was our hobby MUCH more popular when the cars were slower?
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Old 11-28-2006, 06:58 AM   #577
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IMO - I agree with the 4 cell rule. I personally think the problem lies on the other side of the equation. Stock sedan is very difficult today. I am talking about the kid that is comming from the Nikko, Radio Shack, Tyco crowd. These guys are overwhelmed with how fast our stock cars are today. Racing is spread out further. And most importantly, in stock sedan if you hit a board you are going fast enough and carrying enough weight to break just the same.
With 4 cell you could run rubber only rules in stock. Easy learning curve and easy on the equipment.
In 19T you could go to foams. Most of your expirienced club guys would race here.
Then you have open modified.

Any way you look at it it would be cheaper and easier to maintain. Need to get more people in.

I for one like the idea.
Same argument when it was 1/12t scale.

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Old 11-28-2006, 07:36 AM   #578
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The oval guys had many of the same complaints that are on here when oval went to 4 cell a few years ago. Guess what? Most if not all of the oval guys are happy with 4 cell now and there was a big surge in the number of oval racers (at least locally) because the new guys could actually run stock. Many of the stock guys simply moved up to 19 turn (or mod) where they belonged.


I personally don't understand what the big deal is with slowing the cars down. Most of the guys that are complaining about slowing stock down don't really have a point. There are other faster classes to run if stock gets slower. 19 turn is fixed timing for onroad so it's pretty much exactly what they want (a faster stock motor).

The biggest thing that 4 cell should help out with is tire wear. Lighter cars will wear less on the tires. Right now you can ruin a set of tires in one run at a big race in mod (especially 2 stage). For a race like Cleveland, that's about 7 sets with practice. 7 sets is about $210... Even if the lighter cars need 4 sets for a big race, that's only about half the cost.

Let's see here. Cheaper batteries, lighter cars, slower speeds for the new people...The list goes on. The only two real complaints that I've heard are "battery war" and "it's slower instock".
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Old 11-28-2006, 07:37 AM   #579
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If speed is what makes our hobby interesting, why was our hobby MUCH more popular when the cars were slower?
Because it was less restricted. It was more interesting when cars looked different and you could run just about any motor you wanted too. Now days all the cars are almost identical and the motors are too. This is why offroad nitro is growing and other areas are not. There are tons of different cars and trucks, the rules are very relaxed, and people can go out and have fun with their cars when they are not racing. Indoor onroad is not that way. Most people don't run their cars outside of the track. If you look at that from a young persons point of view, what fun is it? It isn't. You spend a ton of money on a carbon-aluminum luxury car and you can't even use it unless you are at the track. You can spend the same money on a monsterous nitro truck and go out and drive it anytime you want, even in the snow if you take some precautions (the last electric to do that was the Sand Scorcher, and the industry doesn't make cars like that anymore).
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Old 11-28-2006, 07:52 AM   #580
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I personally don't understand what the big deal is with slowing the cars down. Most of the guys that are complaining about slowing stock down don't really have a point. There are other faster classes to run if stock gets slower. 19 turn is fixed timing for onroad so it's pretty much exactly what they want (a faster stock motor).

The biggest thing that 4 cell should help out with is tire wear. Lighter cars will wear less on the tires. Right now you can ruin a set of tires in one run at a big race in mod (especially 2 stage). For a race like Cleveland, that's about 7 sets with practice. 7 sets is about $210... Even if the lighter cars need 4 sets for a big race, that's only about half the cost.
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Old 11-28-2006, 07:55 AM   #581
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Because it was less restricted. It was more interesting when cars looked different and you could run just about any motor you wanted too. Now days all the cars are almost identical and the motors are too. This is why offroad nitro is growing and other areas are not. There are tons of different cars and trucks, the rules are very relaxed, and people can go out and have fun with their cars when they are not racing. Indoor onroad is not that way. Most people don't run their cars outside of the track. If you look at that from a young persons point of view, what fun is it? It isn't. You spend a ton of money on a carbon-aluminum luxury car and you can't even use it unless you are at the track. You can spend the same money on a monsterous nitro truck and go out and drive it anytime you want, even in the snow if you take some precautions (the last electric to do that was the Sand Scorcher, and the indutry doesn't make cars like that anymore).
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Old 11-28-2006, 08:40 AM   #582
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One thing I don't think I've heard mentioned is that the speeds stock motors are going new guys don't want to race its scary and intimidating I have a bunch of friends who I have tried to get into racing or even some I've tried to get back into racing and they all say the same thing that looks too hard and when they see a car implode on the track that kills it. There needs to be a slower class so people can feel comfortable getting started whether that means going to 4 cell or tracks just pushing a beginer class. I know the track I was at last weekend had at least 3 beginers and they didn't offer to run a novice class just threw them in with stock to get tore up. It was in very bad taste, nobody likes to do nothing but pull over the entire time we all go racing to go racing not pull off to the side. Something needs to be done to make onroad more beginer friendly like offroad can be. A track I used to race at had a TLO1/TTO1 class that was packed everyweekend and two or three new people would come in every month and stick around for at least a while. Many of them becoming permanent. Thats the kinda thing we really need and only the tracks can push that and make sure it suceeds by stocking a beginner kit setting rules and making it comfortable and affordable for people to get started....

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Old 11-28-2006, 09:16 AM   #583
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Some food for thought:

Any track that puts a newbie into the "Stock" class is doing his customers a great disservice. Not making allowances for new drivers is the Death knell of our hobby.

Why are we trying to say we need to change the rules at the Nationals for Newbies. Newbies never have nor ever will put forth the level of dedication needed to compete at the Nationals. Slowing down the cars is exactly the opposite of what the Nationals are, a competition to see who is the best.

If the Mod guys can't get their car to work under race conditions with the absolute fastest motor available then they have the option to motor down. It is called race strategy and in order to win you first have to finish...Can you believe the NASCAR guys had that one right.

I'm tired of people saying "Look at how successful this change was for Oval"....take a look at the Oval turn out at your track and think about how successful the 4 cell change was for them....7 years to get the speed back....sheesh...you wonder where all of them went???? Look around you, they are now onroad racers.

For those that say the equipment will last longer, consider this, as soon as the new tire compounds come out (softer for more grip because the cars now have less power) and lighter cars (less rotating mass, less unsprung weight, less need for beef in critical areas because the car is lighter now), new electronics designed for 4 cell (no need to overbuild here right?) you will be right back to wearing out your stuff on one race day. Believe it because this is all about the bottom line for the manufacturers and if this didn't matter to them we wouldn't see a new car from some of them every year.

If ROAR really wants to know what is going on it should look to the grassroots level of racing to see what is happening. I see a big jump in brushless use. Having talked to the racers (spending big dough on these things too) they like them because they are "just about the same with vitually no maintenence". They are beginning to do the same with LIPO. ROAR should ask WHY this is happening and do what it can to encourage it because it is helping the hobby grow.

4 cell will not help anything grow...still have doubts?????? How is the Oval turn out at YOUR track? Yes the MOD Oval turn out...how is it???
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Old 11-28-2006, 09:22 AM   #584
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I've read everything posted on this subject even though it doesn't directly effect RC Pro since we don't do electric onroad it is a concern. I see the same thing coming for electric offroad in the not to distant future. The indoor offroad is going to have to deal with this soon. Since these tracks almost have the same traction as touring cars. The RC Pro solution is run longer races. Last year when we started that there were concerns about run time until the 1st race and most found out they could make a 7 minute stock race with a 3300 pack. Same for the 6 minute mod races. Last year our battery limit was 3800 this year it was increased to 4300. We didn't increase race length again this year but it will likely increase in 2008 by 1 minute per class.
I see Bob's input on slowing down the entry level to bring in more new racers. He has a valid point. Either we develop a more entry level class or we move the pro's out of stock. A thought is to have two stock classes STOCK ( for the entry level racer) which could use a voltage limiter and PRO-STOCK for the sponsored racers. This would allow for a slower entry level class without the need to buy different equipment. Then when a driver is ready to move up the voltage limiter would be taken off. The problem with instituting the entry level class is this should be something that starts at club level. The problem with that is most clubs don't get a large turnout and it seriously dilutes the racing to have too many classes so in reality this kind of approach will fall on the larger races. In gas offroad and gas onroad we do have a more entry level class for the most popular classes at our division and national events and it's worked real well. The problem is regulating when people should move up in class effectively. Electric offroad would have a problem adding a class since there are so many classes now but we may have to do it in the future to get new racers.
I sure don't have all the answers nor does any sanctioning body. This is where exchanging ideas with racers is important. There are a lot of passionate racers here with some good ideas that should be considered. I'm personally not a fan of changing to 4 cell or even 5. That IS one way to slow some of the racers down. In all honesty how many racers will put a slower motor in to assure they finish the race when they know others are running a more ballistic motor? NONE we're racers we want to try everything we can to win even if it's possible we won't finish the race! That leaves the race organizer to do it for the racers. I happen to be a fan of extending race time to do that. Even in stock it causes people to rethink their gearing to run longer. I'm NOT saying make the times long enough we get into batteries not making the run time. I sure don't want to see a return to having to have the newest battery on the market to win philosophy.
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Old 11-28-2006, 09:53 AM   #585
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Art D is on fire. Woohoo!!! Well put. Wish this would just all go away so we can get back to more productive topics like racing and setups. Wake me up when it is over so I can dust off my electric cars, charge a few packs and come out to race. Nitro and 5th scale season are over.
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