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Old 11-27-2006, 07:08 PM   #556
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how do you guys gear your touring car for 4 cell?
my stock was damn slow in the straight line......
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Old 11-27-2006, 07:15 PM   #557
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Default Some bottom line thoughts.

In no particular order...

A) I think it's fair to say that batteries are the best we've ever had.
B) MOD is to fast for 99% of racers to turn laps that are LOTs faster than 19t. And frankly, I dig that. Let us make the decisions on where to put the power down!
C) The existing seperation between mod-19t-stock is really to close at this point. The average Joe can usually go faster with a 19t than a full on mod. Blame whatever you like for that anomoly, traction, limited skill, whatever.
D) Stock is to fast for the new people to race, it's just to much, a good driver is gonna be like 4 laps back from his times in mod, not 10, 4 or so on the average track.
E) The industry, whether we like it or not, is changing and evolving, and will continue. Most of us don't know what the manufacturers are working on that will effect us directly or indirectly, within a year.
F) Most of do NOT know what motor sales are like, and what the actual manufacturers are thinking. Not the re-packager crowd, the Manufacturers.
G) Everybody on this thread is passionate about the hobby.
H) We do not know 100% what ROAR is thinking. But I feel I'm getting a pretty good grip on it. I think these people have their hearts in the right place, but I want to know that their heads are in the right place. I believe they are seeing what they believe to be a trend that the fastest cars are simply to fast for even the pros, and the slowest cars are to fast for the people that ROAR is hoping to get into the sport, the new guys, the rookies, the future of the sport. I don't know that much of this is based on the "blowing up" that other people post about happening more overseas. As we have seen very little of that here in North America.

I think the "blowing up" a motor and esc thing might have got their attention and we may focus on it, but it's skirting what they are trying to do, and not what they are focusing on.
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:22 PM   #558
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Some food for thought from Cleveland this last weekend. For the most part, 19t is only 1 lap off of mod, and stock is about 1.5 laps off of 19turn. This is where some of the best drivers in the country were able to get that equipment to end up. For the sake of debate, the 19T "A" looks like the Mod "B" for lap times. And the stock "A" looks the 19t "C" or "D". THere is NOT a lot of spread here, or room for growth and new people. The mod drivers I've since talked to feel mod is just to freaking fast. Which is why 19t is so close as well. It's just easier to drive FAST.

Qualifying, and heat setups.
Stock Touring, A.

25/5:07.144, Ellis, Andrew,
25/5:08.076, Dodge, Robbie,
25/5:08.139, Cuffs, Jeff,
25/5:08.468, Langlois, Jarrod
25/5:08.963, Xavier, Craig
25/5:09.562, Bradley, TJ
25/5:10.165, Johnson, Brad
25/5:10.262, Goetz, Christopher
25/5:10.411, Denton, Mo
25/5:11.161, Schaffer, Rob

Touring, 19T, A,
27/5:10.281, LeMieux, Paul
26/5:00.555, Dumas, Mike
26/5:03.302, Dayger, Jeff
26/5:04.017, Blackstock, Mike
26/5:04.045, Gray, Andrew
26/5:04.572, Baker, Barry
26/5:04.973, Tosolini, Chris
26/5:06.317, Flack, Bobby
26/5:06.831, Denton, Mo
26/5:07.543, Ellis, Andrew

Mod Touring, A,

28/5:09.807, LeMieux, Paul
27/5:00.790, Dumas, Mike
27/5:02.791, Easton, Billy
27/5:03.502, Burch, Ralph
27/5:03.543, Darroch, Ray
27/5:03.853, Blackstock, Mike
27/5:05.021, Baker, Barry
27/5:05.858, Groskamp, Jilles
27/5:06.992, Doseck, Chris
27/5:07.021, Dayger, Jeff

Not many differences there. I think that's the problem ROAR is looking at.

I've always been of the mind that for most club events, you would see spreads that I'll call, "2-2". Stock is about 2 laps slower than 19, and 19 is about 2 laps slower than mod, Hence "2-2". The gap is tighter here at Cleveland because the racers in each class are about the best there is, which is not what happens at 99% of club races, most of the time.

Let's apply some of this to what we believe ROAR is thinking. I'm of the mind they are thinking a few things. That the technology is changing, brushed motors are slowing in sales as people dabble in brushless, and brushless has more power potential. There are those in our industry that are about done making brushed motors. And WHERE does this leave us as racers 2-3 years from now?

Let's add to that, the fact that there really is no "entry level class" any more (you need look no further than the abov race times to see that stock HAULS-BUTT). Stock motors dyno like a 14turn in a lot of ways, and are WAY to fast for most racers, let alone noob's. Look at the race results from Cleveland. Only 2 laps separated a stock motor from making the mod main...

Where do we go from here? How do we and ROAR, ensure the long term health of the industry and sport in North America? And I think it's fair to include "Industry", based on the simple fact that if we have no tires, as an example, we are in big trouble, and there is no hobby / sport.
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:31 PM   #559
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Could this be what we need to address? (speed up, slow down, whatever.)

We need 3 classes for touring,
at least for the sake of this debate. And 3 classes works well for racers that want to run more than one car. I've decided to simply call them , A, B, and C. Rather than Mod, 19t and Stock, so people don't develop any preconceived ideas about a class, based on what they feel it should be. Imagine 3 new classes (for the sake of argument), from slowest to fastest.
A) Class A, Slower more entry level class, about 3 laps off the pace of the class in front of it
B) Class B, intermediate, about 3 laps faster than Class A, but 3 laps slower than Class C.
C) Class C, the premier modified class, The fastest of the fast, anybody wanting to attempt to go as fast as possible, plays here. About 6 laps faster than Class A, and 3 faster than class B.

Nobody wants to be called a rookie or noob,
Using a phrase like "pro-sportsman" is good. "Rookie main", is not. Nobody wants to go slower than they already are, regardless of the nobility or higher purpose of the cause. So calling the first class stock is just to irritating to stock racers. Just call it Class-A. If you want to go faster than the rules in class-A, try some class-B.

I am also of the mind that most racers would be willing to sacrifice "some" top speed, if the races were longer to make the days racing a better value. As in, perhaps, class-A could be 6-8 minutes instead of 5. Even in Florida where it's hot, they have no troubles running the existing stock class on 6 cells for 6 minutes. The guys with the least track time, now also get more of what they need, more track time, not more power. This also makes racing a better value for parents looking for a family hobby. Etc....

Our job, as racers, figure out how to make this happen.
It's 3 classes, A-B-C.


Using our technology, have at it. Keep in mind our technology is likely changing to brushless, for better or worse. Keep in mind you are also developing 3 classes that need to still work, "more or less" 3-4 years from now. Batterys and motors will be better, along with cars and tires, etc.

Also, it's easier to develop from the top down. Making rules for class-C and work down. As fast as possible with less out of control for 99% of us. The club racers, not the world champion types.

And when you're done, imagine the fastest class, Class-C (made up name, just go with it for the sake of figuring out a good class) as being as fast as most of can go now, somewhere between 19 and the mod we are using.

Imagine the next class, class-B, ending up about 3 laps back from that.

Imagine the final class, the slowest, and most noob related, being 3 laps further back.

THOUGHTS?
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:35 PM   #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred kellner
I bet 90% of the people complaining on this thread only run stock touring car which is slow with 6 cells.

Going to 4 cell stock will give the new drivers a chance to learn how to drive and stop from breaking every time they put their car on the track because 6 cell stock is too fast for them. This will only help this sport grow.
I beg to differ, check the qualifying results I posted from Cleveland. Stock is right there. only 2 laps or so back from mod!!!!

I'd be willing to bet that 99% of us here could not run those kinds of stock lap times with a mod motor in the car. Which is an interesting observation if you can imagine yourself as ROAR and you're wondering what to do to even things up and slow things down a touch for some classes, and add some seperation.

Fred, What about also adding run time to the slowest class? Instead of 5 minutes, anywhere from 6-8? Maybe slower, but now you get the plus of more track time, which is what noobs really need.
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:42 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by RC ROCKSTARZ
BEEN THERE. DONE THAT. NOT ABOUT THE MONEY FOR MOST. FOR ME, ITS ABOUT LOVING TO RACE AND HAVING YOUR SPONSOR TELL YOU THAT YOU WONT GET THE SAME SUPPORT FOR TRYING TO STEP UP TO MOD. BEING TOLD THAT THEY ALREADY HAVE A MOD TEAM AND THEY WANT YOU TO STAY DOWN AND STACK THE STOCK MAIN.

Wow really I never heard anything like this before. Absolutely amazing!
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:45 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by T. Hodge
Wow really I never heard anything like this before. Absolutely amazing!
See Todd, you screwed up. Should have been slackin'...
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:49 PM   #563
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Todd, (put ya on the spot here)

If you could develop 3 classes for touring, A-B-C. C being fastest, and you wanted the end result to be a speration between them of say 3 laps between c and B, and 3 laps between B and A. What would your opinion on that be?

Using existing technology and "likely" adding in where we see the technology in 3-4 years. Not an absolute obsoleting of everything we have, but a combining and review of everything we have and the best way to smooth out the fastest class, and make the entry class a little easier.
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:55 PM   #564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred kellner
I for one can't wait until 4 cell goes in effect. I saw a Novack 3.5 on 6 cells it was just too fast to drive, running same lap times as stock 6 cell. I know it would have been perfect with 4 cells. From what I understand run time won't be an issue with brushless, and there will be no more thermal shutdowns. Goodbye brushed mod motors.

Hopefully moving to 4 cell will get some of these guys who only run stock to move to modified.

I bet 90% of the people complaining on this thread only run stock touring car which is slow with 6 cells. I didn't see there names on the modified Cleveland drivers list. So what is the difference if they run 4 cell 19t which is the same speed as 6 cell stock? The only class that is being removed is the 19 turn speed class.

Going to 4 cell stock will give the new drivers a chance to learn how to drive and stop from breaking every time they put their car on the track because 6 cell stock is too fast for them. This will only help this sport grow.
i gotta agree with most of this... and with 12th scale rising up it would seem that having 4cell packs would make sense all the way around, at least for those guys wanting to run 12th and TC... Seems alot of the people complaining are the stock racers, and maybe they should keep running 6 cell regardless. 4 cell in mod means better corner speed, less wheelspin and tire wear, and speed on the straight that on most tracks is deadly close to what 6 cells give. I laugh when I hear people complain about how they'll have to buy "4 cell specific chassis", gimme a break friggin' cry-babies just move your electronis around. On a club level, 4CM will be a nice class for the older crowd looking to escape the cut-throat intensity (and over-crowded) stock classes.... brushless systems that require less work, even brushed motors will last longer, and with 4200's WHO IS WORRIED ABOUT RUN-TIME???? Stock is to much for the week-end warrior (the back-bone of the industry) that just wants to go fast, and not worry so much about the cost of new motors, brushes, tires, and having packs with insane voltage (or your just not gonna keep up). My .02, back to your regularly scheduled program (crying about 4 cells and brushless and how it will somehow ruin racing )
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:00 PM   #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred kellner
I for one can't wait until 4 cell goes in effect. I saw a Novack 3.5 on 6 cells it was just too fast to drive, running same lap times as stock 6 cell. I know it would have been perfect with 4 cells. From what I understand run time won't be an issue with brushless, and there will be no more thermal shutdowns. Goodbye brushed mod motors.

Hopefully moving to 4 cell will get some of these guys who only run stock to move to modified.

I bet 90% of the people complaining on this thread only run stock touring car which is slow with 6 cells. I didn't see there names on the modified Cleveland drivers list. So what is the difference if they run 4 cell 19t which is the same speed as 6 cell stock? The only class that is being removed is the 19 turn speed class.

Going to 4 cell stock will give the new drivers a chance to learn how to drive and stop from breaking every time they put their car on the track because 6 cell stock is too fast for them. This will only help this sport grow.
All you points are dead on but my question to you is this. Are we as racers that STUPID that we don't know when we have too much motor? IIf you can't handle a 3.5 with 6 cells then don't run a 3.5. There's a 4.5 and a 5.5 which are milder. The answer isn't dropping cells to run the super hot wind. Motor down and be in control. Most of us complaining run mod, 19, and stock so we have a little say across the board. The rules as written now state nothing more than 6 cells can be run so there's nothing stopping people from running the 4 cells now. Who knows how this whole thing will end up but the one thing I'm sort of glad to see is a bunch of racers together trying to fight the same fight.
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:26 PM   #566
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All you points are dead on but my question to you is this. Are we as racers that STUPID that we don't know when we have too much motor? IIf you can't handle a 3.5 with 6 cells then don't run a 3.5. There's a 4.5 and a 5.5 which are milder. The answer isn't dropping cells to run the super hot wind. Motor down and be in control. Most of us complaining run mod, 19, and stock so we have a little say across the board. The rules as written now state nothing more than 6 cells can be run so there's nothing stopping people from running the 4 cells now. Who knows how this whole thing will end up but the one thing I'm sort of glad to see is a bunch of racers together trying to fight the same fight.
Often I prefer to race with 9T instead with 8T or 7T. 9T actually is the most comfortable for my driving skills.
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Old 11-27-2006, 11:29 PM   #567
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Looking at those times BoBStormer posted, all I can say is WoW.

12.2 sec average lap for Stock
11.4 sec average lap for 19t
11.0 sec average lap for Mod

Granted these are the best of the best, but notice the top 2 in both 19t and Mod are the same 2 guys, and 5 of the guys in the 19t "A" are also in the Mod "A". Two of the 19t "A" guys were also in the stock "A" including the Winner. hmmmm what would have happened if Paul LeMieux, Mike Dumas, Jeff Dayger, Mike Blackstock, Andrew Gray, Barry Baker, Chris Tosolini & Bobby Flack had run STOCK too?

I'd bet that STOCK average lap time....would have been UNDER 12.0 seconds.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:04 AM   #568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Hodge
I would like to point out a few facts.

Mod TC at Cleveland...the smallest it has been in years. Why?

1st Round of TC Mod A-qualifier-10 cars started-3 Finished. Why?

On-road Mod has been dying for years. Why? Because it is too fast for most to even attempt to control. For the most part, R/C racing is a hobby, not a profession. Sure, there are some pros out there, but they are not the group keeping this hobby alive. The rules should not be tailored to .01% of our hobby. Make the rules reasonable for the average Joe.


10 start and 3 finish in Mod.... Only thing I can think to do is blame the drivers, they must not have any self control. Sure they are racing, but come on, isn't racing about using common sense!?!?

OK, sarcasm is done now. If 10 of the best drivers in the world can't finish a 5 minute race, what do you think someone with average skills is doing? These cars are land based cruise missiles! SLOW THEM DOWN!


Now, I'll address all those who believe that racing is ONLY about going at insane speeds. Racing is about testing your driving and car setup abilities against other drivers. This can be done at ANY speed. As long as everybody plays by the same rules, speed is irrelevant. It's about competition.


And please, everybody cut the crap about needing 4 or 5 chargers to charge the cells individually. This has already been done. I saw it done about 15 years ago at Cleveland.

And if you REALLY want to know about 1-run wonder batteries, take a trip in the way-back machine and remember the old yellow 1700sce batteries. There was NO way to charge these that would make them last. One charge and one run and you would lose at least one cell. If you were lucky, you could replace that cell and get another run. These batteries were easily $100 a pack, and that was 15 years ago! With inflation, that would be at least $150 to $175 today.


4-cell, 5-cell... I don't care. Just slow these cars down so we can start growing the hobby again. I'm tired of running against the same 3 people each week.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:06 AM   #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
I beg to differ, check the qualifying results I posted from Cleveland. Stock is right there. only 2 laps or so back from mod!!!!

I'd be willing to bet that 99% of us here could not run those kinds of stock lap times with a mod motor in the car. Which is an interesting observation if you can imagine yourself as ROAR and you're wondering what to do to even things up and slow things down a touch for some classes, and add some seperation.

Fred, What about also adding run time to the slowest class? Instead of 5 minutes, anywhere from 6-8? Maybe slower, but now you get the plus of more track time, which is what noobs really need.
Well we still don't know *if* this is what ROAR is trying to address, but *if* it is, doesn't dropping 2 cells off of every class get us to the point where they would all still be 1 lap off of each other ...just slower laps?
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:21 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by HarshGuy
Well we still don't know *if* this is what ROAR is trying to address, but *if* it is, doesn't dropping 2 cells off of every class get us to the point where they would all still be 1 lap off of each other ...just slower laps?
And that is the $64 question. For debate, will the cars slow down equally if run on 4 cells, so the gap between the average lap times is the same as shown from the Cleveland event, or will the gap widen between the classes? Widening the gap is much more desireable.
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