ROAR to 4 cell....
11-24-2006, 06:08 PM
#301
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (8)
Re-call Mike. I vote for Eddie. I have known Queller for years back in the BMT days but to have the idea of running 4 cell is just another reason to run nitro. I have never met Eddie but he certainly makes very valid points and I would have certainly casted my vote for him has I known where the ballot was. Maybe the time has come to have two comittees, one for Nitro, and one for electric. Nitro racing is gaining in popularity around the country for a reason and it is becoming more and more affordable. This will just draw people to that classs whether it be off-road or on-road. RC Pro Series has done a nice job so far and so has the JBRL series. Maybe these organizations are the future and ROAR will evaporate or become a localized sanction much like Norrca has.
11-24-2006, 06:09 PM
#302
Relative to longer run times.
Anybody here have their batterys riding the discharger at the end of a race? Personally I'd rather have the track time.
Unless you're in the .1% bracket of top racers, the 99% that are left would do just fine with longer races.
We experimented last winter with 15 minute qualifiers and mains in 1/12 scale... could easily do 20 minute mains now. cars were faster than stock, and talented drivers could very nearly run mod times at the club level.
THAT, is a good value, and was lots of fun.
Me driving the car, or my discharger heating up my pit area.... not a hard decision.
Anybody here have their batterys riding the discharger at the end of a race? Personally I'd rather have the track time.
Unless you're in the .1% bracket of top racers, the 99% that are left would do just fine with longer races.
We experimented last winter with 15 minute qualifiers and mains in 1/12 scale... could easily do 20 minute mains now. cars were faster than stock, and talented drivers could very nearly run mod times at the club level.
THAT, is a good value, and was lots of fun.
Me driving the car, or my discharger heating up my pit area.... not a hard decision.
11-24-2006, 08:06 PM
#303
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
I feel people will always want to complain and start things when it is not what they want.
IT IS NOT WHAT THEY WANT -- loud and clear.
I also want to drop a question here for all the people who favor 4 cells TC :
Why would people want to spend a few hundred dollars to buy a RC car (chassis only) which is merely a little bit faster than the Nikko? Not to mention you have to put tons of time and effort to make the chassis work.
OK, if 4 cells is as fast as 6 cells. Then why the hassle to change it?
To get the most out of 4 cells, a racer almost need to purchase all his equipment. Which means an almost complete new start. Then, who is gonna get BENIFIT the MOST from this change?
Maybe I'm dumb, I think the whole think of 4 cells is just non-sense. I think this would kill the ROAR authorithy over TC racing rules, but not killing TC.
11-24-2006, 08:09 PM
#304
yada, yada, yada
Have any of you guys checked out the AE GT2 or Losi 8ight....forget all this sedan stuff man, nitro is where its at!... 
4 cell, 5 cell, 6 cell.....blah, blah, blah.....Its obvious ROAR is not listening to the populous. Instill secure on-line voting and put this issue up to members to decide!
Why change all touring to 4 cell?, when the articulation from what I understand it to be is help the modified class. Look at Cleveland, a whooping 31 Modified entrants, and out of the 31 I think only 5 of those are not factory....man, what a brilliant decision!...
4 cell, 5 cell, 6 cell.....blah, blah, blah.....Its obvious ROAR is not listening to the populous. Instill secure on-line voting and put this issue up to members to decide!
Why change all touring to 4 cell?, when the articulation from what I understand it to be is help the modified class. Look at Cleveland, a whooping 31 Modified entrants, and out of the 31 I think only 5 of those are not factory....man, what a brilliant decision!...
11-24-2006, 08:10 PM
#305
some points
This is an interesting thread. Both points of view are valid:
Those who advocate 4 cell give these reasons:
1) less weight= cooler motors, slower impact forces, less damage
2) slower cars= cooler motors, easier for beginners to handle cars, slower impact forces, less damage
Those opposed to 4 cell give these reasons:
1) cars designed for 6-cell, more cost for new cars
2) battery wars will restart
3) 6 cell has been a standard since anyone can remember
4) no need to change the rules if there is no problem
It comes down to pro 4 cell is about less weight and slower cars, anti 4 cell is about keep the standard because there is no problem.
If you want to solve all of the problems at one time, run LIPO and higher turn brushless motors (13.5 turn, 15 turn, etc.)
The orion 3200 LIPO weighs less than 1/2 of a 6 cell, 4200 pack, (removing 3 cells of weight,) a high turn brushless motor is very efficient, doesn't get hot unless geared incorrectly and is consistent.
What about 12th scale. Same thing, run 7.4v lipo with high turn brushless motor. (The beauty of LIPO is that the cells come in all shapes and sizes.) A 12th scale lipo pack doesn't have to be 3200mah (2000mah with a brushless motor will easily make 8 minutes.)
It's interesting that the same people who want to completely change the rules for the number of cells, also reject new battery technology.
Instead of changing the rules to use lower voltage outdated cells, why not accept LIPO and have the new generation of cars balanced for LIPO packs.
There is technology already available to make the arguments meaningless- LIPO, and high turn brushless motors.
The funny thing is that everyone agrees that LIPO (or a similar technology) and brushless are the future of r/c, it's just that no-one wants to impact their, or their friend's livelihood to make the change.
By the way, a watt of power is 1amp times 1 volt. If you increase the voltage, you decrease the amperage. Power is R (resistance) x I*I (current squared.) If you decrease the amps by 20%, you decrease the power handling requirements by about 40%. (Same reason power lines are high voltage, 10,000v at 120amps, not 120V at 10,000 amps.) This means speed controllers don't need to handle as many amps.
It has been mentioned that the voltage in the electrical systems in real cars is going up, not down. The motor battery in the toyota prius is 201.6 volts.
Those who advocate 4 cell give these reasons:
1) less weight= cooler motors, slower impact forces, less damage
2) slower cars= cooler motors, easier for beginners to handle cars, slower impact forces, less damage
Those opposed to 4 cell give these reasons:
1) cars designed for 6-cell, more cost for new cars
2) battery wars will restart
3) 6 cell has been a standard since anyone can remember
4) no need to change the rules if there is no problem
It comes down to pro 4 cell is about less weight and slower cars, anti 4 cell is about keep the standard because there is no problem.
If you want to solve all of the problems at one time, run LIPO and higher turn brushless motors (13.5 turn, 15 turn, etc.)
The orion 3200 LIPO weighs less than 1/2 of a 6 cell, 4200 pack, (removing 3 cells of weight,) a high turn brushless motor is very efficient, doesn't get hot unless geared incorrectly and is consistent.
What about 12th scale. Same thing, run 7.4v lipo with high turn brushless motor. (The beauty of LIPO is that the cells come in all shapes and sizes.) A 12th scale lipo pack doesn't have to be 3200mah (2000mah with a brushless motor will easily make 8 minutes.)
It's interesting that the same people who want to completely change the rules for the number of cells, also reject new battery technology.
Instead of changing the rules to use lower voltage outdated cells, why not accept LIPO and have the new generation of cars balanced for LIPO packs.
There is technology already available to make the arguments meaningless- LIPO, and high turn brushless motors.
The funny thing is that everyone agrees that LIPO (or a similar technology) and brushless are the future of r/c, it's just that no-one wants to impact their, or their friend's livelihood to make the change.
By the way, a watt of power is 1amp times 1 volt. If you increase the voltage, you decrease the amperage. Power is R (resistance) x I*I (current squared.) If you decrease the amps by 20%, you decrease the power handling requirements by about 40%. (Same reason power lines are high voltage, 10,000v at 120amps, not 120V at 10,000 amps.) This means speed controllers don't need to handle as many amps.
It has been mentioned that the voltage in the electrical systems in real cars is going up, not down. The motor battery in the toyota prius is 201.6 volts.
11-24-2006, 08:14 PM
#306
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
Not to mention the fact that the main argument for EFRA has been speedos and motors that are "blowing up". I don't see an epidemic of threads like that on any forums in North America.
Why change the cells if it's believed the motors and speedos need be fixed and updated? Why take the only piece of the equation that actually WORKS EVERY TIME, and limit it, rather than fix the problem?
Why change the cells if it's believed the motors and speedos need be fixed and updated? Why take the only piece of the equation that actually WORKS EVERY TIME, and limit it, rather than fix the problem?
when did the limit get ignored or lifted?
did racers not used to running 7-8T's, start puffing more speedos and motors?
was it assumed that battery advances were causing it?
Last edited by fast-ho-cars; 11-24-2006 at 08:37 PM.
11-24-2006, 08:14 PM
#307
as for nitro
I like watching nitro cars, they are the closest r/c has to real cars and trucks. But they are not for everyone.
I personally don't like the noise, fumes, and mess of nitro. But that's just me. Electric is more for me, and that's not going to change.
I personally don't like the noise, fumes, and mess of nitro. But that's just me. Electric is more for me, and that's not going to change.
11-24-2006, 08:15 PM
#308
No one likes the idea of buying two 6 cells packs and...
making three packs out of them or being able to use your four cells packs in your 1/12 scale and touring car? A four cell rule won't change much. Other than spending less and getting an extra packs out of it. Until companies make better packs, I'm done with them anyway. Lipos are the future and I hope regulars cell die with brushed motors. Lipos are only 2 or 3 cells. 
Originally Posted by Wolf
I think you already get the most important point! IT IS NOT WHAT THEY WANT -- loud and clear.
I also want to drop a question here for all of the 4 cells TC:
Why would people want to spend a few hundred dollars to buy a RC car (chassis only) which is merely a little bit faster than the Nikko. Not to mention you have to put tons of time and effort to make the chassis work.
OK, if 4 cells is as fast as 6 cells. Then why the hassle to change it?
To get the most out of 4 cells, a racer almost need to purchase all his equipment. Which means an almost complete new start. Then, who is gonna get BENIFIT the MOST from this change?
Maybe I'm dumb, I think the whole think of 4 cells is just non-sense. I think this would kill the ROAR authorithy rather than killing TC.
I also want to drop a question here for all of the 4 cells TC:
Why would people want to spend a few hundred dollars to buy a RC car (chassis only) which is merely a little bit faster than the Nikko. Not to mention you have to put tons of time and effort to make the chassis work.
OK, if 4 cells is as fast as 6 cells. Then why the hassle to change it?
To get the most out of 4 cells, a racer almost need to purchase all his equipment. Which means an almost complete new start. Then, who is gonna get BENIFIT the MOST from this change?
Maybe I'm dumb, I think the whole think of 4 cells is just non-sense. I think this would kill the ROAR authorithy rather than killing TC.
11-24-2006, 08:17 PM
#309
Originally Posted by Anders Myrberg
"Industry standard"? I remember 5 was standard in the past. Then came the 6:th on top of a 5-cell pack, making it 6. 1/12 standard is 4 cells. Thatīs no argument.
The cheapest alternative that will not cost anyone a cent is a Max gearing rule... If it's a known fact that a motor will burn up at a 30mm rollout then you can run a max of 29mm rollout.... Every real sanctioning body has a gearbox rule...
No one wants to hear that one because the companies can't make any money since we all already own a pinion assortment....
11-24-2006, 08:24 PM
#310
Originally Posted by Jack Smash
T. Thomas, apparently you don't know what a battery war means. It means that companys will have up to $100 batteries due to the increased demand for that extra 10 seconds of runtime (which works out to 20 secs of an 8 minute run). These people will not have to gear or motor down since they paid for the extra runtime. This then forces everyone else to buy these packs to keep pace.
I've seen this before and it wasnt pretty. This is what killed dirt oval in the early '90s.
I've seen this before and it wasnt pretty. This is what killed dirt oval in the early '90s.
Here is a question, what was the touring car class originally designed for?
Has anyone ever considered seeing how a 2wd touring car would work? Why does it have to be a 4wd vehicle? I am not talking a pan car with a touring body I am talking about a current car but on in a 2wd configuration. Or would this make it too hard for people to go fast with(since speed is what everyone wants anyway)?
11-24-2006, 08:30 PM
#311
Originally Posted by T. Thomas
Here is a question, what was the touring car class originally designed for?
Has anyone ever considered seeing how a 2wd touring car would work? Why does it have to be a 4wd vehicle? I am not talking a pan car with a touring body I am talking about a current car but on in a 2wd configuration. Or would this make it too hard for people to go fast with(since speed is what everyone wants anyway)?
Has anyone ever considered seeing how a 2wd touring car would work? Why does it have to be a 4wd vehicle? I am not talking a pan car with a touring body I am talking about a current car but on in a 2wd configuration. Or would this make it too hard for people to go fast with(since speed is what everyone wants anyway)?
Remember way back when (btw, I still have matched 1200's) when we had 2wd on road, the AE DS??? You could easily base an onroad car off an AE or Losi buggy....
11-24-2006, 08:33 PM
#312
Went to the track today to unplug from all of this B.S. and just turn some laps. While I was there I talked to some of the racers that showed up to do the same thing.....
No one wanted to go 4 cell. Not one. The Stock guys just laughed at me and the few 19T guys that were there made rude comments about ROAR.
I am SURE that Adrian is pushing this agenda with ROAR using his position as Promotions Director on the EXCOM to get gain their ear. I think he is miss guided in thinking that this is a cure for what ails TC racing but he will still push this to the limit at ROAR. I am willing to bet money that he has already talked to Scotty Ernst, Fred Medel, Mike Boylan, and even probably Mr Bill to secure their support if ROAR goes to 4 cell. Please let these guys know that this is not what WE want and that they should consider this BEFORE making their decision on following ROAR or not.
Who wants to race 4 cell 19T? NOBODY!
Who wants to race 4 cell stock? NOBODY!
Who wants to race 4 cell mod???? Adrian and his cronies......
No one wanted to go 4 cell. Not one. The Stock guys just laughed at me and the few 19T guys that were there made rude comments about ROAR.
I am SURE that Adrian is pushing this agenda with ROAR using his position as Promotions Director on the EXCOM to get gain their ear. I think he is miss guided in thinking that this is a cure for what ails TC racing but he will still push this to the limit at ROAR. I am willing to bet money that he has already talked to Scotty Ernst, Fred Medel, Mike Boylan, and even probably Mr Bill to secure their support if ROAR goes to 4 cell. Please let these guys know that this is not what WE want and that they should consider this BEFORE making their decision on following ROAR or not.
Who wants to race 4 cell 19T? NOBODY!
Who wants to race 4 cell stock? NOBODY!
Who wants to race 4 cell mod???? Adrian and his cronies......
11-24-2006, 08:34 PM
#313
i agree with vtl1180ny and i agree with another statement made: "Stop comparing to oval and 12th, it's apples and oranges.... They are a completely different car...."
but i do think some need to look at the ROAR 2006 rule book before they assume everything based on some races.
ROAR RULES 2006
1/12 Onroad
8.9.3.3 battery cells
Carpet surfaces: 4 cells maximum
Paved surfaces: 6 cell maximum
1/10 Oval pan car
8.9.8.3 battery cells
6 cells maximum
so why would ROAR not leave the 6 cell maximum and do some races where they could state "ROAR 4-cell sedan race"?
but i do think some need to look at the ROAR 2006 rule book before they assume everything based on some races.
ROAR RULES 2006
1/12 Onroad
8.9.3.3 battery cells
Carpet surfaces: 4 cells maximum
Paved surfaces: 6 cell maximum
1/10 Oval pan car
8.9.8.3 battery cells
6 cells maximum
so why would ROAR not leave the 6 cell maximum and do some races where they could state "ROAR 4-cell sedan race"?
11-24-2006, 08:36 PM
#314
TC was originally supposed to be a cheaper alternative to the rising costs of off-road racing. kind of ironic now that dirt is much much cheaper.
heck, i can run 4whl mod off-road, cut the motor once a raceday (11x2), run crappy batteries, and get at least 4 race days out of a set of tires. in TC i cut my 19t every other run, need decent to good batteries for club races, and a new set of tires every race day.
too bad TC is a heck of a lot more fun to me than off-road
heck, i can run 4whl mod off-road, cut the motor once a raceday (11x2), run crappy batteries, and get at least 4 race days out of a set of tires. in TC i cut my 19t every other run, need decent to good batteries for club races, and a new set of tires every race day.
too bad TC is a heck of a lot more fun to me than off-road
11-24-2006, 08:40 PM
#315
Originally Posted by fast-ho-cars
i agree with vtl1180ny and i agree with another statement made: "Stop comparing to oval and 12th, it's apples and oranges.... They are a completely different car...."
but i do think some need to look at the ROAR 2006 rule book before they assume everything based on some races.
ROAR RULES 2006
1/12 Onroad
8.9.3.3 battery cells
Carpet surfaces: 4 cells maximum
Paved surfaces: 6 cell maximum
1/10 Oval pan car
8.9.8.3 battery cells
6 cells maximum
so why would ROAR not leave the 6 cell maximum and do some races where they could state "ROAR 4-cell sedan race"?
but i do think some need to look at the ROAR 2006 rule book before they assume everything based on some races.
ROAR RULES 2006
1/12 Onroad
8.9.3.3 battery cells
Carpet surfaces: 4 cells maximum
Paved surfaces: 6 cell maximum
1/10 Oval pan car
8.9.8.3 battery cells
6 cells maximum
so why would ROAR not leave the 6 cell maximum and do some races where they could state "ROAR 4-cell sedan race"?
I atill believe there's an alterior motive here and the sanctioning bodies have to get the cell count changed very quickly....