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Old 11-23-2006, 08:43 PM   #151
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So, do I hold off on buying a new 007 and wait for the 4 cell version to be released ?
I do like buying new Xray's every year now, I can sell my old one for around $250 and for an additional $150 I get the latest greatest new chassis, small price to update, thats what less than 3 good batt pacs.
Should I sell my T2 now while its still worth around $250, or should I wait till the 4 cell rule comes out and drops the value to, what zip, nada, nothing ?
Not to mention the loss of sale to my LHS for the current 007.

Somebody make a decision, please !

Oh, bye the way, I'm not a front runner, I'm just an average racer trying to go fast, have fun and keep my local track in bussines. I dont run mod, not many around here do, stock is just fine for now, but I am not going to go slower.
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:43 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Smash
I'm pretty sure if ROAR goes to 4-cell TC it will be the nail in the coffin and we will see a new sanctioning body appear.
Nothing saying we can't race in the USA as EFRA.

The only reason our club uses ROAR is for the insurance. I'm gonna look into getting a policy for our club. 60 $30 fees equals $1800 available for some minimal, keeps the landlord happy, insurance policy.

All clubs have little tweaks to the rules that need to be done to better suit the area and it's interests.

I have written up rule sets in the past for various RC classes we've developed. I have no problem coming up with rules to keep our club members happy.
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:44 PM   #153
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This might be the decision that sends me back to off road too... Besides the off road track is 4 miles from my house compared to 15 miles for the on road...


My LHS's track is very small, it is a stock only track, there is no way we can run mod period, occasionally we get a layout we can run 19 on. Once the 4 cell specific cars start coming out and replacing the 6 cell cars this will probably be the end of the track.

I finally have the RC Pro series coming local, hopefully they'll start picking up EP TC...
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:49 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
This might be the decision that sends me back to off road too... Besides the off road track is 4 miles from my house compared to 15 miles for the on road...


My LHS's track is very small, it is a stock only track, there is no way we can run mod period, occasionally we get a layout we can run 19 on. Once the 4 cell specific cars start coming out and replacing the 6 cell cars this will probably be the end of the track.

I finally have the RC Pro series coming local, hopefully they'll start picking up EP TC...
i think that your local club doesnt have to follow all of the ROAR rules!
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:49 PM   #155
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Bob, I see a big run on 4 cell packs.....I got a new shipment in....wanna order some?


Later EddieO
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:55 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
Have you tried it...I mean really tried it. If not you are just guessing that it sucks and are spouting off about somthing you know nothing about.

We have way too many "internet experts" and not enough guys that have real experience. They guys that ARE running 4 cell right now are finding it is not much slower.

Also, you think its going to take "a few years" to get the speed you you are WAY under informed. A huge jump in speed will happen as of January 1, 2007 when we can run sintered mags in BL motors.

The Novak 13.5 whigh is supposed to be a "Stock Level" motor is just as fast as a 19T with a sintered mag in it. Eventually 13.5 will be "The" stock class.

Where do guys start out when the motor you start with is as fast as a 19T?

Brushed motors are going to die within the next 2 years. Beginers faced with an option of a maintence free motor will be all over the 13.5 BL class. How sucessful will your local new guy be if 19 is where that start out...not very.

4 or 5 cells is the answer.

The people pushing 4 and 5 cell are the industry leaders. They know more than you and have been doing this longer than you. They depend on your hobby for their lively hood. As Such they have done the research and have determined that 4 or 5 cell is the best course for the future of R/C racing.

All of this happend 7 years ago in Oval racing. None of your arguments are new. They were all said 7 years ago and the guys that complained then now say that switch was a good move.
As I have said before...previous experience with oval. Yes, it SUCKED!

I don't know about where you are at but we have been running the sintered arm for a while now....and I have NEVER thermalled my 4.5 with the stock rotor in it. Simply put, I asked the guys that designed the darn thing how hard I could push it and have been able to run right with the guys running 7 turns.

I have been watching the guys with the 13.5 in the stock class now and they are loving it...running 6 cells.

If you take the "we know better than you do attitude" we the racers will go elsewhere with our money...need proof...how's the oval turn out at YOUR track??? Besides the fact you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about me. Do you have any IDEA how long I have been racing much less been participating in this industry???? NO YOU DON'T. Don't make assumptions about what I know and whether you know better than I do.

As I said earlier....been there and done that with oval....my argument still holds true. When oval went to 4 cell I spent a ton of money to update my equipment only to find turnouts dropping even more. Is that what you want to happen with Touring? I know YOU are pushing this agenda with ROAR.....
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:55 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C_O_jones
So, do I hold off on buying a new 007 and wait for the 4 cell version to be released ?
Yes, wait.

There will be more room on the chassis and better balance in a car built specifically for that number of cells.

Anybody racing a car with the pack down the one side will have some "balance" work to do until the new cars come out.

God help all the people that cub race with stick packs. Guess what, it's the noob's. Way to be on the look out for them...
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:59 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
As I have said before...previous experience with oval. Yes, it SUCKED!

I don't know about where you are at but we have been running the sintered arm for a while now....and I have NEVER thermalled my 4.5 with the stock rotor in it. Simply put, I asked the guys that designed the darn thing how hard I could push it and have been able to run right with the guys running 7 turns.

I have been watching the guys with the 13.5 in the stock class now and they are loving it...running 6 cells.

If you take the "we know better than you do attitude" we the racers will go elsewhere with our money...need proof...how's the oval turn out at YOUR track??? Besides the fact you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about me. Do you have any IDEA how long I have been racing much less been participating in this industry???? NO YOU DON'T. Don't make assumptions about what I know and whether you know better than I do.

As I said earlier....been there and done that with oval....my argument still holds true. When oval went to 4 cell I spent a ton of money to update my equipment only to find turnouts dropping even more. Is that what you want to happen with Touring? I know YOU are pushing this agenda with ROAR.....
well if you run the 4.5 do me a favor and run it with 4 cells and gear it around a 8.23 to a 8.4 , then let me know how you like it. With the sintered rotor I have geared mine down to a 7.9
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:59 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Bob, I see a big run on 4 cell packs.....I got a new shipment in....wanna order some?


Later EddieO
Sorry man, if we're gonna be racing 4 cell touring stock, your date codes are 15 days off, we can't be competetive with those... </end sarcasm>

Although, the fact that you have a LOT of them is a good sign. We're gonna need a LOT of them. And every week as it would seem. ...lovely... Can I get a break on some personal cells if I commit to buy say 4 new packs every single week?

You know what also chaps me about this, is that most of the drivers in our club are VERY happy right now with their understanding of the batterys. There are more than a few that have figured out that having 4300mAh of power is NOT the problem with their race program. They are working on their driving skills and using packs all the way back to 2400. They are not embarassed, nor do they feel out gunned, or compelled to buy batteries or lose big time. They do the important thing, which is show up and have fun. They are finally to a point were they have more power than they can use. We are finally in a good place for 99% of the racers that use batteries and we are attempting to mess that up...
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Old 11-23-2006, 08:59 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcos.J
i think that your local club doesnt have to follow all of the ROAR rules!
Once the 4 cell specific cars hit the shelves and we can no longer get parts for our old cars, what do you think will happen? My LHS only stocks parts for certain brands, mostly the bashers but they will carry some stuff that the racers ask for. We are barely 1% of their business, they are a full service hobby shop who happens to have a track in the basement....

I'd be willing to run 4 cell 190mm pan car, it would probably be an excellent class, hell you'd probably never spend a dime on it all year... As for 4 cell TC, the design is just not conducive to 4 cell...
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Old 11-23-2006, 09:04 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Marcos.J
well if you run the 4.5 do me a favor and run it with 4 cells and gear it around a 8.23 to a 8.4 , then let me know how you like it. With the sintered rotor I have geared mine down to a 7.9
Do I really need to do this to know that I will lose a ton of punch and will most likely have to buy a 3.5? It is a no brainer.......just like in the day with my oval cars.....only this time I won't be around to buy 4cell specific chassis and slider chassis and what not....I will probably find something else to do. 2 wheel Mod Buggy sounds interesting again....with 6 cells unless the idiots at ROAR mess that up too.
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Old 11-23-2006, 09:07 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
Yes, wait.

There will be more room on the chassis and better balance in a car built specifically for that number of cells.

Anybody racing a car with the pack down the one side will have some "balance" work to do until the new cars come out.

God help all the people that cub race with stick packs. Guess what, it's the noob's. Way to be on the look out for them...
Bob, you hit the nail on the head... There are many bashers and newbie's out there with 6 cell sport packs. In order for these guys to run they all have to go out and but specific race packs... Then when they take than 4 cell pack out bashing with their friends with the toys r us special and get beaten it's over...

We have some racers who think this hobby is all about them... Sorry to tell y'all but TC's are still the new kid on the block.... I started in this hobby in the 70's with control line nitro and tether cars and decided I wanted to go fast and turn the other way too....
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Old 11-23-2006, 09:08 PM   #163
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Why don't we just throw out ROAR and start over? racers started it we can end it. All we need is 250 votes.
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Old 11-23-2006, 09:12 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
Do I really need to do this to know that I will lose a ton of punch and will most likely have to buy a 3.5? It is a no brainer.......just like in the day with my oval cars.....only this time I won't be around to buy 4cell specific chassis and slider chassis and what not....I will probably find something else to do. 2 wheel Mod Buggy sounds interesting again....with 6 cells unless the idiots at ROAR mess that up too.
trust me you wont lose that much punch , Im telling you you will be surprised!! "dont knock until you try it"

and you dont need a 4 cell chassis , I dont have a 4 cell chassis.
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Old 11-23-2006, 09:12 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Again, who are the people having all this trouble with mod racing? I don't see it. At the Reedy Race open mod had no real issues until maybe a A-Main? So we have to change things for 10 people? This makes no sense. You actually DON'T have to go as fast as you can and blwo everything up. This is a stupid rule, thought of for TOURING only and is not a smart decision.

If you want to "save money" and I don't understand why people think any form of racing is cheap, start a spec class, with specific chassis and equipment. DON'T change the industry for 10 people.

A rule that will slow down cars is limiting tires for the race. Say in rubber, no more inserts, foam you have to run a certain size tire with a rim size limit.

This is a rule change because people are too scared to make a rule that actually does something.

In 2 years if we go to lower cell count, the electronics will be made to that level, Novak isn't going to keep over engineering their products for long.

Touring has become a high end racing class, like 1/8 on road. My suggestion it to run off-road and remember that all this crap doesn't matter. If you want to run 1-cell in off-road it's your choice, not a rule.

If you're faster in 19T than in mod, then run 19T in mod, that's the motor you should run, not a 7-turn. If the track is small there is no advantage to run a mod motor. THe idea is to find the motor that makes you the fastest.


The real solution was changing the electronics to actually be built for higher volts, where you'd have less amp draw and less heat...equaling more runtime. Brushless Helis run 42 volts for less heat and more run time. In the automotive world they went from 6-volt to 12-volt and now want to go to 42 volts because of the reduced draw.

There are 11 classes for "slow" already. If 19T is the most popular and the "new mod" let it be, and not try and slow down everything else.
Derek, your thinking here is a little off. I see your point, and I agree on many of the issues you voice your opinion on, but let me point this out.... for you and everyone here.

The heli guys are using high voltage cells, yes. But they are lower capacity. The key in this argument is the wattage used. By incresing the voltage, they can use a much smaller pinion and therefore they aren't using anywhere near the amperage as before, so they don't have the heat problems nor the amperage limit problems in their ESCs (to an extent). So basically they were giving up amperage to gain more voltage, which obviously is working better for them. There's one more aspect we forgot to throw in... the helis are for the most part keeping their weight the same. Same weight, same wattage, just trading higher voltage for less amp draw. Sounds great right?

With the touring cars (like what Jason B and Marcos are running), we are reducing the voltage, but INSTEAD of increasing amperage and therefore using approximately the same wattage, we are giving up the weight along with the voltage. Is the 48 gram reduction perfectly equal to the 1.24AV? I don't know, it will take some r&d, but it's already been noted that tire wear is highly reduced, motor wear is reduced, and we can rearrange electronics to balance the weight back out. Plus, a lighter car, i.e. the T2 '007 minus 48gr will effectively make the car MORE durable. The effective destruction realized in an impact is based on the stored energy in the mass and velocity (along with a trillion other minor aspects) of the object. Reduce the mass, you reduce the amount of breakage.

Yes, there will be a transitional phase. Yes, it may cost some of us some money. But we are updating our touring cars at least once per year- if the r&d results in lower overall racer costs and better racing, then for most of us it will be one of the updates/replacements we were going to absorb in our racing costs anyway.

As for the batteries and chargers... there is no reason to change anyting with the chargers. The number of cells in series has zero effect in the design of the charger. It's the chemistry and capacity that the charger must be "tuned" for.

Making touring cars heavier is counterproductive. Slow them down with weight but increase wear and tear on all the servicable items like tires and motors? That will mean MORE expense to me, more expense to the sponsors, and the factory driver won't give a flying flip for obvious reasons.

Here's something to ponder- why would the largest importer and matcher of Intellect Batteries in the US suggest that it would be beneficial to the average racer to reduce the number of cells by 1/6th or 16.6666666% effectively reducing his profit by almost the same amount, as well as causing less tire wear on the tires that his partner is selling? Because as always his best interests are in the hobby and if reducing overall racing costs might bring in more racers and make the racing itself more fun and less frustrating, then he's for it. Say what you want about me, but I give credit where credit is due. If Danny told me I have to pay50% over retail for his batteries I would, because I stand up for the people I believe in. That's not to take anything away from any other matchers of course.
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