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Old 11-21-2006, 10:42 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by trilerian
So why should I race clean?
Pride !!!

The other problem in being the "faster follower" is that you will get blamed for any racing incident, regardless. You already showed you are up to a second a lap faster, still you are held up. Not held off, held up.

You get no credit for not punting the guy for upwards of 100 corners, sooner or later one of those corners is gonna end up in a bit of punting. And not because you meant to, it's the law of averages. The longer you race VERY close with somebody, the more likely the scenario will end up with somebody in the wall.

It's always better to let the faster car go. Even in the mains. By holding somebody off that is faster you risk getting the short end of stick in a corner marshal situation. Better to slow a tenth of a second on one lap than to stick in the wood for 5-10 seconds. Or even risk a DNF for a broken car. Course management, it's like golf.

I think that statement, "... if you are really better, you can get around me cleanly..." is crap. You get no credit for not putting someone in the wood for a few hundred corners, touch the guy because he checks up to soon, and you get blamed.

Let the fast guy go. Especially if it's somebody that ALWAYS out qualifies you by a lap or two, and he's already passed you 3 times.

I taught that to my son, now 17, when he first grabbed a transmitter 12 years ago... guess who is now qualifying right behind me, and once a year or more, beating me... It's because he is patient. There is always another race next week.

I also think a lot of passing problems come from racers that don't travel from their local club. To them, every race is a national event, so to speak, and we need every club racer we can get, so don't get me wrong on that one. To guys that travel a lot, it's just really practice and car setup day.

We get WAY more track respect out of town than we do racing at our club. And we give more respect too. We don't know as many people at out of town events, and if somebody you don't know, has outqualified you by two laps, you let them go, as you have no pre-conceived notions on their style or ability. At club races, these guys we see all the time have got to test you out, every time. "c'mon, work for it.."... "Seriously? again? I passed you 60 seconds ago, and here I am again..." ...lol...

That said, even a bad day racing is better than a good day working.

On a club level event, it's never worth it to risk the car. At a bigger event with say 300 drivers you are VERY likely to be in a main with drivers with your EXACT skill level. In that situation, make 'em earn it.

I think we all have been in a well sorted ifmar qualifier where you don't catch the guy in front, or are passed by the guy behind, and NOBODY else in the heat did either... That's pretty cool when that happens.
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Old 11-22-2006, 11:22 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by trilerian

So why should I race clean?
My rule is: you race me clean, I'll race you clean. Do I make mistakes every so often and run into someone? Yes. I appologize immeidately and again after the race and try to remember to let him recover and get back past me. In club racing you get to know each other pretty well. There are a handful of racers who give no room and no respect, so that's what they deserve in return. I may make them wait a corner or two longer before I just give it to them. I find that usually 8 of 10 in the A follow a similar strategy. Think about that one or two who don't show anyone respect. They have to fight for every pass becasue 8 or 9 of us know that they'll punt us anyway. Is that really a fun way to race if you are the one who everyone knows you're the hack? So, don't be a hack. Mistakes happen, but everyone knows who the real hacks are and, in the long run, they get back the respect they deserve.

I haven't seen anyone post any advice on how to be passed, so here's mine. The best place to let someone go is in a 180. It's the most predictable place, you have to slow the car down anyway and it will lose the least amount of time. You don't need to pull over and stop. It's good to say "Jim, next corner!" then lift a little early on corner entry and move over to the middle of the track. The passing driver (A-main drivers) should be able to easily move through on the inside half of the track without hitting you. Then, don't rip the throttle on exit and clobber them. You're really slowing to half speed in a slow 180 and getting back in it on their bumper.

As a passer, I believe (may not be right, but I believe) that you should never try to pass going into the high speed sweeper at the end of the straight. The speeds are at their highest, your car's grip is maxed out and either one of you could make a small mistake that turns into a big, big crash (broken chassis and stuff). Just my POV.
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Old 11-22-2006, 11:32 AM   #33
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This can really go both ways. I had qualified 2nd in the 'B' with two other cars within 3 seconds of me in 3rd and 4th. The 1st place car was a full lap faster, so I was content to let him run away.

On the horn, all I wanted to do was keep it together until things got stretched out a little. We didn't even make it from the straight to the loop before I got punted from 2nd to last. I wasn't holding anyone up, I was just holding my line, and the car behind me overdrove the corner and punted me.

So I got it back together and started running. I don't think I made it 2 laps before one of the same cars that was right with me in qualifying punted me AGAIN (spun the wrong way) by overdriving the corner again. Finally, I got peeled again off the sweeper, pointed the wrong way for the 3rd time in a row and I just lost it. What I did wasn't pretty and I wasn't proud, but nobody (and nothing) got hurt and I just pulled the car. I was about 3 laps down at this point, and there was no coming back.

Point being, just being the overtaking driver (especially in a main situation) does not give you the right to punt them, no matter how far down the "slower" car is.

This was a club race. It was all guys I knew. It's guys I'd normally happily let by. I just wanted a decent chance at a race and I got molested. Nobody broke anything, but it didn't keep me from getting upset. One comment I recevied was that I "slowed down too soon." Yep - I slowed for the corner so I didn't overshoot it and leave a huge gap for you to drive through. That doesn't make it fine to drive harder into the corner and spin me.

I'll race with them next week happily. After I got off the stand I made a point to congratulate the winner and shake hands with everyone else. We're just gonna have to learn to drive together better. But still, it took a lot of fun out of what otherwise had been a great night for me (best qualifier I'd ever run on that layout).

So in the end - if it's a main and you can't make a clean pass, you don't pass. Don't punt 'em just because you know you're faster. That said, if you KNOW you're slower (1 second difference doesn't count), then get the heck out of the way.

Mike
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Old 11-22-2006, 12:04 PM   #34
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The rule I go by on who has the corner is if the passing car can get his front tire in front of the leading car's rear tire, the leader needs to give the line to the passing car. He can fight as hard as he can on the outside to keep position, but must give the inside lane to the other driver.

If the passing car cannot get his front tire in front of the leaders rear tire, he must back off upon entry into the corner and let the leader have it and try again later.


The problem is that we have so much grip that it is easy to be fast driver. It takes much less time for someone to become competitive lap time wise, but still not have very good car control. They can run good laps but can't make the small adjustments that an experienced driver can when there are variables in the track.
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Old 11-22-2006, 02:30 PM   #35
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The only choice is 2 turns and then push past....not the best way but on 75x35 carpet track it is the only way sometimes.

In the mains clean passing is required and if you send someone you should stop and let them past.

Passing is a skill that takes a lot of time and control to develop...Im still working on it...lol.
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Old 11-22-2006, 03:47 PM   #36
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I had an incident on the weekend which I'm curious as to how I should have handled it.

I run in a 4 cell stock motor class (I'm pretty green and it's the entry class) and in the final, I got stuck in a wall and fell back. I find that when I get stuck, I usually end up hitting the next two corners as well so that slows me up even more. I also tend to run a lap slower in the final than qualifying.

Anyway, when I got out of the incident, I'd been lapped by a racer I was quicker than so I then came back around on him and while I was quicker, I was a lap down so I didn't know whether to pass him or battle it out with him to get back on the same lap. I tried to make a couple of passes and I got around him and then in the next corner he came back on me and we tangled, not enough to put us out or anything. The race director told me to give up the place and let the other racer by so I did.

Should I have just stayed back in the first place or was I right to try and get my lap back on a slower racer?
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Old 11-22-2006, 03:58 PM   #37
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My opinion is that since there won't be a debris caution allowing you to catch back up to the field, you should just stay behind the leader and wait for him to make a mistake. It's not his fault you ended up a lap down and you should respect his race.
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Old 11-22-2006, 04:00 PM   #38
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GreaseMonkey, It sound like you made a clean pass, that being the case you did nothing wrong. The passing deal should work both ways. If someone comes up on you and you haven't made mistakes that allowed them to catch you, the faster driver should be let through. You have the wright to try to make up your lap too. If you kept making mistakes and the situation occures a couple of times I would probably hold you back, but not by staightening out a corner and taking you out. Traffic is harder than going fast. It doesn't always come out pretty. All you, as a driver, can do is be as nice to other drivers as you can. I feel you can be more prowd of finishing behind someone by running them clean.
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Old 11-23-2006, 02:36 AM   #39
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Wow, lots of great pointers. I have found that if you wait enough and give pressure to the car that is in front of you. they will make a mistake. you also have to becarefull too. if your following to close. you might get tangled in there mess. Patiance is the enssence of racing. In a qualifer the slower driver must give you room to pass. maybe not right away. maybe in a few corners or two. In the main. I beleive you must work for the pass. especially if it is for position. but if your being laped you should give the car that is lapping you the right of o'way. if your having a great battle for position with another car ei: for 3 and 4 place. and the leade is coming up. well the leader already has a big lead. he has to find way to get by you both with out interupting the other racers. yes, he is faster. but your battleing it out too. So fo the car that is going to lapped both cars might have to wait longer maybe 5 to 8 turns or even a couple of laps.

I also believe if you are a better driver prove it and pass me cleanly. Then if you are a much better driver I can tell that you are I will give you room just give a couple of turns, were "I" beleive I won't loose to much time and give you the line and respect you deserve. As long as you have the patience.
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Old 11-23-2006, 03:49 AM   #40
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Old 11-23-2006, 07:05 AM   #41
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Gee on past occasions I thought proper etiquite was you run up on my bumper, scream F'ing move(not so politely and then drive right thru me.....HMM maybe those guys weren't being so nice afterall.... J/K
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Old 11-23-2006, 07:57 AM   #42
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when i`m racing in the lower heats (i don`t mind being with slower cars)
trouble starts when i come to lap guy`s & they move all over the place & you end up hitting them (then i feel guilty coz i can/should aviod them )
so the newbies come & ask how can i get out of they way
i said it`s easier for me to pass slower traffic when they keep to there racing `LINE` instead of doing a micheal scumacher (weaving all over the place

when i go up to the faster heats A`s & B`s then the problem starts ,there are some big ego`s in them & they don`t move for nothing ,don`t like being past or lapped & generally make it very diffulcult for the faster car & just being a pain in the arse ,even when they move over they try to race you to the next corner or even round the corner

It`s as though they are posessed when they get behind a transmitter & all they see on track is there car & nothing else ,tunnel vision ,usually if some thing comes near them hit them keep out of my bubble matey


In the uk saying `SORRY` straight after a tap or accident is a rarity in it`self , they say sorry after you confronted them about it (not good)

fast drivers should take more responsability in there passing of `traffic `& they are no the only ones on track

slower drivers should be made more aware of faster cars & they don`t need to weave all over the place trying to get out of the way,whicj will end up in a crash
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Old 11-24-2006, 01:07 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by MR JOLLY

In the uk saying `SORRY` straight after a tap or accident is a rarity in it`self , they say sorry after you confronted them about it (not good)
That's an unfair generalisation of Uk drivers the club i attend every weeek (Hertford rc) has drivers of all abilitys and at all levels if someone gets punted there is always an instant apology like wise when a slower driver lets someone through you always get a " Cheers mate " it does get quite funny if your sitting at your pit table all you can hear sometimes is "thanks Scott, sorry Bill, go by at the hairpin". I think what it comes down to is lead by example as when i first attended the club that was the first thing i noticed common courtisy!! so i do the same .
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Old 11-24-2006, 01:18 AM   #44
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Greasemonkey,

Generally speaking it is always the responsibility of the person behind to ensure he does not tag the person he is passing. This regardless of whether that person is 2 laps up or 2 laps down.

Further to this it is the responsibility of a slower driver getting lapped to allow the faster driver through.

In your situation as the faster driver it is perfectly right for you to race with a driver who is a lap up on you. However, extra caution should be taken to ensure that you do not take him out (if the guy were smart hed just let you through cause hed have to drive pretty bad to drop a lap back to you).

Personally i always find once stuck behind someone it takes a lap or two to get back into the racing groove but after a few laps if you are holding up the person behind you i guess it would be polite to let him back through. Cars can also perform dramtically different as a race progresses.

Ultimately though the race directors is final, so you should always follow his instructions but you should also chat with the race director and explain your situation.

If you are not a local at the track, the race director will also favour their local drivers where they know they are of a particular standard, so if this is the case you may also have unluckily got the raw end of the stick.
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Old 11-24-2006, 06:45 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosta
That's an unfair generalisation of Uk drivers the club i attend every weeek (Hertford rc) has drivers of all abilitys and at all levels if someone gets punted there is always an instant apology like wise when a slower driver lets someone through you always get a " Cheers mate " it does get quite funny if your sitting at your pit table all you can hear sometimes is "thanks Scott, sorry Bill, go by at the hairpin". I think what it comes down to is lead by example as when i first attended the club that was the first thing i noticed common courtisy!! so i do the same .
shall we say 27t & 19t spec classes then
Mod guy`s are more polite for sure

we will see Boosta after sundays meet how you feel
you will get loads of thanks when you race at the smae club with the same guy`s week in week out
but when you start racing outside that Bubble ` then it`s gets intresting
your racing against strangers & there are quite a few in 27t & 19t (UK) that will do a dodgey monuever no probs & getting that word out (Sorry) is like getting blood out of a stone

anyway roll on sunday CYA there Boosta
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