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Old 11-28-2006, 08:04 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackKat
Read my posts real slow. Don't feel embarassed if you have to go back and read it again. I know that rap music you listen to goes rather quick and uses an impressive vocab of about 6 words.

How are you going to tell me that I haven't tried to get "normal" people intrested in the hobby and failed due to the simple nature of it? How are you going to tell me that most "normal" people I talked didn't instantly loose intrest when I mentioned where the only local track is and how much it costs to play there?

Why do you think I've lobbied for what I lobbied for? To get average people into it. Appearantly, you John, seemingly don't care about my points. I suggest you keep working to keep your racers there, and keep me out. (although, I was thinking of checking out your carpet track some time)

BTW: John, I thought you'd find this rather intresting. I'm actually getting people at my school intrested in the Mini-Z track in SC. Why? Location and cost.
The word is INTEREST and INTERESTED.

And Hicks is right, everything I have ever seen you post relates to how this hobby should accomodate YOU. You claim to speak for the average racer but you always demand it on terms you agree with and you want everything on the cheap.

Grow up already, seriously.. if you can't afford the price of admission to a real racing facility then find another hobby or be happy racing around garbage cans in the Wal-Mart parking lot.
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Old 11-28-2006, 08:59 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by wyd
Racing has gotten smaller in my area but some of this is due to 3 carpet tracks and 1 indoor asphalt track all within roughly an hour away. Gas prices seem to hurt some as due higher entry fees (which I understand due to rising heat and electric costs so no biggie to me on this).

In general racing is still not bad in my racing area. I'm lucky as I have so many traks to run at in the winter and even more in the summer. Sometimes it is actually hard to figure out where to race at.
That's the problem/ trend I see everywhere. 5 years ago their was one track that everyone raced at every saturday here in nor-cal. They never advertised at all, because they were happy with the turn-outs. Well people realize how much money their making and think. If I open a track here I will keep all the racers from having to commute every satuday and I can make some money. But, yet all they did was take racers from one track. Not ever thinking about how to get their own(new) customers. Eventually 4 or 5 different tracks opened with the same "stupid" business plan. And now everything is crap here in nor-cal. Everyone wants to open a track, but no one so far wants to put in the work to bring in new people. It can be done. I started another thread similar to this one, asking race tracks and race directors to step up and change the way yhey run their business. Thats what this truely is for these people.
Black Kat your starting to make me wonder about you. Making comments like instead of focusing on bringing new people in , maybe we should just focus on keeping the ones we got. That mantality is why our r/c industry is where it is. And will never grow the way all manufactures,track owners and race directors do business. None advertise to the main stream in anyway. Not knocking Scotty from the IIC or the people that run the reedy race, but don't you guys think instead of giving us pit towels or t-shirts for entering your race. It would be better to advertise, inviting new people to our most prestiges races where the best in world show up to compete. During these races all the local race tracks where these races are held should promote those races trying to get new customers for themselves. By getting people to these races it will build tons of interest. Have a area for people new can come to at the race where they can test drive real cars, not drift stuff, but stuff we race with. Maybe a demo track. We've gatta change the way things are done. All the manufactures advertize stuff to sell to us, Give thousands of dollors in freebies away a year. But, do nearly or absolutely nothing to help generate new people regularly to our sport. What is roar doing to bring in new people. If they can make decisions for us "like this crap 4 cell thing", than we should hold accountable for promoting our sport if they feel their our voice in the USA. Sorry for letting all my fustrations out.
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Old 11-28-2006, 09:43 AM   #108
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From what I have seen it just seems there are too many people going in different directions. 4cell sedan, foam, rubber, 4300, lipo...etc. The new foma tires now don't last, and they are expensive when racing competitively. A novice class is a must for a successfull track. Here in my local area the is no novice class, the 4300 class has killed pretty much any other class and driven away racers locally and out-of-town.

I think if sedan went back to basics, ROAR rules, stock/19t/mod then you would maybe see it grow back.
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Old 11-28-2006, 10:05 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Alberico
Here in my local area the is no novice class, the 4300 class has killed pretty much any other class and driven away racers locally and out-of-town.

I think if sedan went back to basics, ROAR rules, stock/19t/mod then you would maybe see it grow back.
I'm in your local area and I'm just getting started in racing. the 4300 (own class) and 13.5 brushless allowed in stock aren't killing racing...they are IMPROVING it. I don't know why it would scare anyone away. Zero to little maintainance is such a turn-off to us newbies, I forgot. We all want to sit around and tune motors rather than spend time with our families. I plan on starting in the stock class with a 13.5 and eventually graduating to the 4300s. If I was forced to go by ROAR specs and not race brushless...then I'd simply go nitro and/or off-road and just beat around the back yard. ROAR needs to look at the 4300 class to replace 19t IMO.

The guys I've met have been really helpful and have pointed me in the right direction as far as gear. I just need to buy the motor and an ESC and I'm ready. Thanks to all the guys currently RACING 4300 who have been helpful in getting me going.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:11 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by David Alberico
From what I have seen it just seems there are too many people going in different directions. 4cell sedan, foam, rubber, 4300, lipo...etc. The new foma tires now don't last, and they are expensive when racing competitively. A novice class is a must for a successfull track. Here in my local area the is no novice class, the 4300 class has killed pretty much any other class and driven away racers locally and out-of-town.

I think if sedan went back to basics, ROAR rules, stock/19t/mod then you would maybe see it grow back.
Quite the opposite. We have more toruing cars now then we have had in a very long time. Last Tuesday we had 10 cars stock foam and we had 10 cars in 4300 as well as 7 1/12th scales.

That is pretty darn good for a weeknight.

Later,
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:14 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Alberico
From what I have seen it just seems there are too many people going in different directions. 4cell sedan, foam, rubber, 4300, lipo...etc. The new foma tires now don't last, and they are expensive when racing competitively. A novice class is a must for a successfull track. Here in my local area the is no novice class, the 4300 class has killed pretty much any other class and driven away racers locally and out-of-town.

I think if sedan went back to basics, ROAR rules, stock/19t/mod then you would maybe see it grow back.

You have to show up more than one time in a year and a half to "see" anything. And just because there is not a class with the label 'novice' on it, doesn't mean there is not a class for the beginner/novice/casual racer.

The 4300 class has not killed anything. I has actually brought people back to sedan from 1/12 scale. Or some people are running both sedan and 1/12 instead of just 1/12. It has even brought one guy out of retirement.
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Old 11-28-2006, 12:24 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Juan Aveytia
That's the problem/ trend I see everywhere. 5 years ago their was one track that everyone raced at every saturday here in nor-cal. They never advertised at all, because they were happy with the turn-outs. Well people realize how much money their making and think. If I open a track here I will keep all the racers from having to commute every satuday and I can make some money. But, yet all they did was take racers from one track. Not ever thinking about how to get their own(new) customers. Eventually 4 or 5 different tracks opened with the same "stupid" business plan. And now everything is crap here in nor-cal. Everyone wants to open a track, but no one so far wants to put in the work to bring in new people. It can be done. I started another thread similar to this one, asking race tracks and race directors to step up and change the way yhey run their business. Thats what this truely is for these people.
Black Kat your starting to make me wonder about you. Making comments like instead of focusing on bringing new people in , maybe we should just focus on keeping the ones we got. That mantality is why our r/c industry is where it is. And will never grow the way all manufactures,track owners and race directors do business. None advertise to the main stream in anyway. Not knocking Scotty from the IIC or the people that run the reedy race, but don't you guys think instead of giving us pit towels or t-shirts for entering your race. It would be better to advertise, inviting new people to our most prestiges races where the best in world show up to compete. During these races all the local race tracks where these races are held should promote those races trying to get new customers for themselves. By getting people to these races it will build tons of interest. Have a area for people new can come to at the race where they can test drive real cars, not drift stuff, but stuff we race with. Maybe a demo track. We've gatta change the way things are done. All the manufactures advertize stuff to sell to us, Give thousands of dollors in freebies away a year. But, do nearly or absolutely nothing to help generate new people regularly to our sport. What is roar doing to bring in new people. If they can make decisions for us "like this crap 4 cell thing", than we should hold accountable for promoting our sport if they feel their our voice in the USA. Sorry for letting all my fustrations out.
I will quote this so maybe people will read it again. The Reedy Race is very entertaining and yet not one bit of advertising. People want to be impressed and bringing them to a parking lot might not do it but some parking lot races have more spectators than the Reedy Race. The one and only event I have witnessed that accomplished promotion is when HPI Ran a touring car race at the JGTC in Fontana. Thousands of people saw this event and it was nice to have some spectators watch us race. Good Post Juan

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Old 11-28-2006, 02:37 PM   #113
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Your welcome, any time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
I'm in your local area and I'm just getting started in racing. the 4300 (own class) and 13.5 brushless allowed in stock aren't killing racing...they are IMPROVING it. I don't know why it would scare anyone away. Zero to little maintainance is such a turn-off to us newbies, I forgot. We all want to sit around and tune motors rather than spend time with our families. I plan on starting in the stock class with a 13.5 and eventually graduating to the 4300s. If I was forced to go by ROAR specs and not race brushless...then I'd simply go nitro and/or off-road and just beat around the back yard. ROAR needs to look at the 4300 class to replace 19t IMO.

The guys I've met have been really helpful and have pointed me in the right direction as far as gear. I just need to buy the motor and an ESC and I'm ready. Thanks to all the guys currently RACING 4300 who have been helpful in getting me going.
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Old 11-28-2006, 03:41 PM   #114
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When they stopped letting me run a brushless (4300 with 5 cells) at my local track (it was DEAD even with a 27T, slower than the fast guys, faster than the slow guys), I did just that...quit racing there and went to off-road.

I wish there was a place that us slow guys could just go and have fun racing onroad with the newer low-maintenance parts. I could give a crap about being the fastest...I just need enough to not get my butt kicked and not have to run my life around it.

It's great that they now have brushless in mod, where all the fast guys are...what about the rest of us who just do this for fun? I'd love to race onroad again, but there's no way I'm gonna go out and buy a bunch of NiMh crap and brushed motors again just to have the priviledge.
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Old 11-28-2006, 05:47 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Turbo Joe
When they stopped letting me run a brushless (4300 with 5 cells) at my local track (it was DEAD even with a 27T, slower than the fast guys, faster than the slow guys), I did just that...quit racing there and went to off-road.

I wish there was a place that us slow guys could just go and have fun racing onroad with the newer low-maintenance parts. I could give a crap about being the fastest...I just need enough to not get my butt kicked and not have to run my life around it.

It's great that they now have brushless in mod, where all the fast guys are...what about the rest of us who just do this for fun? I'd love to race onroad again, but there's no way I'm gonna go out and buy a bunch of NiMh crap and brushed motors again just to have the priviledge.

Up in NORCAL and here in central california we are running brushless together with the brush motor. 4300 with 19T class and 13.5 in stock class and open mod with no problem but no lipo. your Local club needs to go with the flow.
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Old 11-28-2006, 08:55 PM   #116
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muahdib4 - Glad you are enjoying the R/C racing world there are a bunch of great guys up there.

Crash/stewartfan: Again you guys included great bunch of guys, but I consider myself an outsider looking in, I see so much more potential here in our area, personally I think on-road in general here should (and could)be 5 times bigger than it is. ROAR has made decisions that we all dislike and disagree with, but it's what we have. You look at the big cars that split off like the IRL and Sprint cars just because they wanted different things with rules, the exact same thing we see here in R/C, cart and IRL is doing badly, same with one of the sprint series. Nascar is huge because everybody sticks with the rules keeping in mind they are using carbs. push rods, and live axles. What would people think if serveral drivers branched of and decided to all run toyota 6 cylinder OHC motors and fords/chevy bodies as a spec class? Stick with the basics and racer turnouts will increase.
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Old 11-28-2006, 09:32 PM   #117
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NASCAR is big in the US and F-1 is enormous world-wide for one reason and one reason only--they are run as "benevolent dictatorships". Parties completely divorced from the teams, etc make ALL the decisions re: rules, series marketing, payouts, splits, etc. They are "benevolent" in that they certainly listen to a certain amount of input from the parties they govern (the teams) but the decisions are made to benefit the program as a whole while minimizing, if possible, the damage to any of the teams.

The series' you mention that are struggling/failing are doing so 100% because they either let the clowns run the circus (the racers call the shots, each jostling for their own self-interest(s) to be served above their competitors) or, in the case of the IRL (that's Idiots, Rookies and Losers to those who have followed this now decade-long saga) are completely ego-driven by a small man who inherited a large checkbook.

Now, let's look at ROAR and RC racing. RC needs a benevolent dictator who acts in the interest of growth of the hobby. ROAR do this to a certain extent, but some of the relationships to the racers, etc are still a little TOO cozy. Could they do better? Sure they could.

As far as changing to 4- or 5-cell for touring car...if it causes a few malcontents to quit the hobby, have at it. How many of that VERY vocal minority who say they'll quit really will? My bet...not that many. My prediction...we won't miss 'em because those of us who are and have been in the hobby for the long-haul will be swamped trying to help the many many times more people the changes will encourage to give RC a go.

The lowest-powered racing (and I'm talking REAL racing, not looping 'round and round in a circle with yellow flags to bunch things up if things start to get spread out...that's "spectacle", not "racing") has ALWAYS provided the closest racing. Looking at the top dozen cars in any race you'll see that Formula V is always closer than Formula Atlantic. Karts are always closer Trans Am. Midgets are always closer than Outlaw sprints. Why? Because it IS all driver. Make a mistake in a comparatively low-powered car and you'll play HELL catching back up. Make a mistake in a high-powered car and you can horsepower your way around mistakes.

Finally, change is always a bitch. Period. Doesn't matter if it's at home, at work, or playing with toy cars people always get uncomfortable with change. Doesn't mean it's good or bad, just that it's change.

Get used to it--try to figure out how YOU can benefit from it, because if it comes to pass it will sure benefit folks entering the hobby. Hope you're here to help 'em.

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Old 11-29-2006, 08:31 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Alberico
muahdib4 - Glad you are enjoying the R/C racing world there are a bunch of great guys up there.

Crash/stewartfan: Again you guys included great bunch of guys, but I consider myself an outsider looking in, I see so much more potential here in our area, personally I think on-road in general here should (and could)be 5 times bigger than it is. ROAR has made decisions that we all dislike and disagree with, but it's what we have. You look at the big cars that split off like the IRL and Sprint cars just because they wanted different things with rules, the exact same thing we see here in R/C, cart and IRL is doing badly, same with one of the sprint series. Nascar is huge because everybody sticks with the rules keeping in mind they are using carbs. push rods, and live axles. What would people think if serveral drivers branched of and decided to all run toyota 6 cylinder OHC motors and fords/chevy bodies as a spec class? Stick with the basics and racer turnouts will increase.

Roar rules have been run for years and racer participation has not increased. It was only after we added a 4300BL class that the racer count increased. There are several guys that race BL that would not be racing if we ran ROAR rules by the book.

CART was struggling before the split and now is about to go bankrupt.

IRL didn't split off because they wanted different rules; they wanted a lower cost series, (no turbo, limiting teams to running certain chassis, etc). IRL may not be as popular as NASCAR, but they have added races for the next year, doesn't sound to me like they are doing badly.

NASCAR is successful because they run Chevy's, Fords and Dodges. When NASCAR started they ran stock cars, cars you could buy off the showroom floor. Cars anyone could buy and race. And with excellent marketing and good timing, they have become huge. Definitely not stock anymore, but fans relate to the make and model. A lot the NASCAR fans root for drivers because they drive a Ford or Chevy, not because of the rules, which NASCAR manages to change a dozen times a year. Plus, I don't believe that the local NASCAR (club) races do not follow the same rules as Nextel Cup. I feel the local R/C track that host club races should use the ROAR rules as guidelines, but not necessarily follow them to the letter.

Not to mention that comparing R/C racing to NASCAR watching is comparing apples to oranges. And Iím sure that local tracks probably struggle with participation, not do to rules but the costs associated with full scale racing. And I wouldnít be surprised if the local tracks amended rules to keep costs down and hopefully increase racer participation.

As a whole, we are sticking to the basics, ROAR rules are still used as a guide line. The car sill has to make weight, wheel base, ride height requirements, etc. Our rubber tire class uses a control tire. I donít feel like itís the rules keeping participation down. Itís the lack of visibility. And Iím sure cost has a lot to do with it.

I do think we need to be careful and not add too many clases. I would rather have 5 classes with 10 racers in each class rather than 10 classes with 5 racers in each class.
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Old 11-29-2006, 09:22 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by StewartFan20
CART was struggling before the split and now is about to go bankrupt.
CART was struggling with competitive balance issues, and since the team owners owned the series decisions were being made based strictly on self-interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StewartFan20
IRL didn't split off because they wanted different rules; they wanted a lower cost series, (no turbo, limiting teams to running certain chassis, etc). IRL may not be as popular as NASCAR, but they have added races for the next year, doesn't sound to me like they are doing badly.
The IRL split off came about 100% because CART teams told Tony George/Indianapolis Motor Speedway that there was NO way they were going to continue spending a month and 1/3 of their annual budgets to race there. The rationale for the creation of IRL were all PROVEN fictitious as time went on, some sooner than others. ANYONE could build a chassis as long as it met price max with trans. That max crept up to meet what a CART car cost VERY quickly. "American manufacturer involvement" was a joke from the outset--the "Olds Aurora" engine was a bespoke racing unit sharing only bore-spacing with it's name provider. ALL internal componentry was designed and manufactured in UK. All the chassis came from UK and Italy until R&S finally made the show several years later. "More American drivers"...look at the grid today, need I say more. Oh, and that real cost-containment strategy "teams own their own engines instead of those evil leases"...they even finally had to give up on that.

IRL would have failed VERY early on had George not funded several teams from his pocketbook and guaranteed starting positions to IRL regulars the first several years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by StewartFan20
NASCAR is successful because they run Chevy's, Fords and Dodges. When NASCAR started they ran stock cars, cars you could buy off the showroom floor. Cars anyone could buy and race. And with excellent marketing and good timing, they have become huge. Definitely not stock anymore, but fans relate to the make and model. A lot the NASCAR fans root for drivers because they drive a Ford or Chevy, not because of the rules, which NASCAR manages to change a dozen times a year..
If you or anyone else believe they race "Chevy's, Fords and Dodges" you are 100% PROOF of the success of NASCAR's marketing. Ain't a single piece on ANY of those cars you can buy from Chevy, Ford, OR Dodge. To say nothing of RWD Taurus', etc. It's a silhouette series, has been for DECADES now. I don't care for NASCAR but their marketing cannot be faulted AT ALL. They provide the perception of close, competitive racing and make whatever rules adjustments it takes REGARDLESS of which team's toes are stepped on. Gary Nelson, their tech director for several years recently, said it isn't a successful season unless he's heard credible testimony from teams running all three mfr. cars that they're at an unfair disadvantage. Don't get me started on NASCAR's business practices though. And don't think they weren't HUGE instigators of the CART/IRL split...open wheelers feud, NASCAR was CLEARLY the victors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StewartFan20
Plus, I don't believe that the local NASCAR (club) races do not follow the same rules as Nextel Cup. I feel the local R/C track that host club races should use the ROAR rules as guidelines, but not necessarily follow them to the letter.
If the race carries the NASCAR branding/sanction it is 100% to NASCAR rules for whatever class may be competing. The only class that complies with Nextel Cup rules is Nextel Cup. Busch, trucks, SW Tour, Modifieds...if it is a NASCAR sanctioned race the appropriate rules are SLAVISHLY complied with. That doesn't mean that individual tracks that host a NASCAR event or two durning the year don't also host non-NASCAR events as well--just like your local ROAR-affiliate club can't have local series and rules if they choose to do so. But NASCAR calls the shots at the national level, and ROAR should do likewise if it can be shown they are at least trying to act in the best interests of the hobby. In that regard ROAR's mission differs from NASCAR--NASCAR only has to act in their OWN best interest. If you take "stock car racing" as their "hobby" they are busily killing ARCA, ASA, etc as no one there can get sponsor money. So much for supporting diversity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StewartFan20
As a whole, we are sticking to the basics, ROAR rules are still used as a guide line. The car sill has to make weight, wheel base, ride height requirements, etc. Our rubber tire class uses a control tire.
Which is pretty much all anyone expects. ROAR don't dictate everyone must run every race 100% by their rules. Even if it's nominally ROAR sanctioned for insurance purposes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StewartFan20
I donít feel like itís the rules keeping participation down. Itís the lack of visibility. And Iím sure cost has a lot to do with it.
BINGO--marketing!


Quote:
Originally Posted by StewartFan20
I do think we need to be careful and not add too many clases. I would rather have 5 classes with 10 racers in each class rather than 10 classes with 5 racers in each class.
Agreed. As long as the classes make sense and work toward promoting particiapation AND growth.

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Old 11-29-2006, 10:16 AM   #120
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Stewartfan: You are right but I feel that you missed my point. You don't see any of those guys say that they feel racing would be better with a less horse power motor made the same people. In KC you are either running stock or 4300 and that's it, the problem with it is that it is closed class, at least in stock you can any stock motor, 4300 isn't that way, plus there is no brushed equal. I see Lipos being the future and with minium weight rules it doesn't give an advantage. I could see ROAR coming out and saying "in 2 years brushless stock will be legal" and start legalizing motors. But I see no future for the 4300 class because it is closed to other manufactures in the motor dept. and it is not equal to anything else. I really don't know what a 4300 is or what makes a brushless a 4300, now if there were a set of specs that were adopted and manufactures made 4300 motors based on those I think the 4300 class would then become a class.

In the meantime, what do I think would increase racer turnout? promote a novice class, run what you brought off-road/onroad, stock motors and must be clean, stock sedan rubber tires ONLY, keep 4300 but find a brushed equal. and 12th scale...blah blah blah.
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