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Old 11-21-2006, 11:16 AM   #31
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The track I attend was down for a bit but it seems to be picking up a little, some weeks are hit or miss....
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:23 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by T. Hodge
In the 19T and stock racing we can never change that as people love to tune their motors.
Not everyone likes to tune the motors and that's why our track runs 13.5 Novak Brushless in Stock. They have the same (roughly) performance characteristics as a brushed stock motor without all the maintainence. Once Novak comes out with a motor between the ss4300 and the ss5800 then there will be a motor that runs nearly the same as a 19t. Brushless motors and LiPo batteries are the future. Higher initial cost but almost nothing to maintain which allows for more racing and brings new people to the track (like me) who want to race but have other responsibilities beyond tuning motors all day.
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:03 PM   #33
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Turn-out for weekly club racing has been way down at the Gate this year. Why? We don't really know. Personally, I think it's due to two inter-related issues. One, alot of the fast guys are moderately to heavily sponsored. Sure, they're fast, they work hard, they have the talent. I would certainly never say that they don't deserve their sponsorships. But, they have to keep their sponsors happy. Which leads to issue #2. Every weekly club race is attacked with the attitude that it's practice for 'The Next Big Race'. The sponsored drivers have to practice for and run ONLY what's allowed to be run at that 'Next Big Race'. Hence, they burn through tires/motors/batteries almost as fast as they would during that Next Big Race. And why not? They get those tires/motors/battiers for little or no money, and need to practice under the same level of intensity and using the setups/practices as they would at the Big Race.

But, this makes even weekly club racing too expensive, both in money/parts as well as time invested in wrenching and track time, for the average non-sponsored racers. It's just too expensive to buy new tires, true them down to 2.17", and only get 1-2 runs out of them. It's far too expensive to have to buy new '5 Run Wonders' IB4200's every month. Not to mention trying to get a couple of good stock motors, that run good every time, and need new brushes every run.

Due to the sponsorship/'Next Big Race' syndrome, no one wants to even try any new classes that might be more fun and less money for the average racer. No interest in running 13.5 BL motors in stock, no interest in LiPo batteries, no interest in a rubber tire class. 'Those classes aren't run at 'Insert Big Race Here', or 'That equipment is allowed in 'Such and Such a Class at Said Big Race'. We used to have a Mini Cooper class and a BRP Class. Not sure what happened to them.

Just my $0.02
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:47 PM   #34
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That is what makes the Reedy Race Invite Class so exciting. The great thing about heads up is that it gives the underdog a shot to qualifying good or maybe even win who knows. The mains will have the same drivers in it except for a few new names from time to time.

What if Nascar had IFMAR qualifying....who the hell would watch it.
I didn't look at it that way that would be cool to race with all those factory guys and win because they broke there car or something LOL Nascar i think is the most boring race there is i like F1 racing.
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:48 PM   #35
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The big race mentality is bad for clubs. Doing anything at the clubs that caters to sponsored/big time racers is generally bad for everybody else. It's a shame, but there's usually not enough of those guys in any given club to force them into their own class.
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:00 PM   #36
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We have 2 carpet tracks in my area. 1 is very small, stock only, poles block the view, layout rarely changes and in desperate need of new carpet. The other is huge and has hosted Roar races in the past.... The sponsored guys used to come to the small track before they were sponsored now they all travel to the bigger place... We have a few guys who live very close (there's about 40 miles between the 2) to the big track but won't go there because of how serious some people take this hobby. They got severely turned off and thankfully they found a home with the bunch of misfits at the small track... The sponsored guys are a great bunch and you can learn a lot from them but I have much more fun with the misfits....

Club racing is just that, a Club....
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:13 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by T. Hodge
What if Nascar had IFMAR qualifying....who the hell would watch it.
Great points regarding the batteries of today ... once a large company steps up and puts pressure on the manufactures to improve the quality of the cells vs. just their capacity - we will all benifit. The current packs are AWESOME - how much better do they really need to be? It would be great if they kept their "punch" longer making the need to buy new packs less often.

With regards to your post above - isn't NASCAR qualifying like IFMAR - every driver on their own clock?
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:19 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckman996
Great points regarding the batteries of today ... once a large company steps up and puts pressure on the manufactures to improve the quality of the cells vs. just their capacity - we will all benifit. The current packs are AWESOME - how much better do they really need to be? It would be great if they kept their "punch" longer making the need to buy new packs less often.

With regards to your post above - isn't NASCAR qualifying like IFMAR - every driver on their own clock?

Ahh you are right. How many people watch NASCAR qualifying?
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
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Ahh you are right. How many people watch NASCAR qualifying?
I do.....

Then again I watch ALMS, SWC, SCCA, etc.....
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Old 11-21-2006, 02:24 PM   #40
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Because the local track is in the back of a big hobby shop we get quite a few spectators in on the weekend. The sight of the mountains of equipment is very intimidating and a huge turnoff for a newbie. It was for me. Multiple chargers, dis-chargers, equalizers, 3-4 battery packs minimum, tools, setup equipment, etc... Then there is all the stuff guys leave at home for tuning. It's a real bummer when your just starting out and realizing all the equipment you should have to be competitive.

My local track is including the Novak 13.5 in the stock/foam/carpet class and the Novak 4300 in the 19t/rubber/carpet. I've been racing less than a year now so my enthusiasm is still pretty high but this just gave it a big boost. Brushless (and hopefully LiPo) will start cutting down on the mountains of equipment soon. It's good to know someone can buy a brushless motor and esc for a lot less than the price of a good brushed motor, esc and lathe.
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:34 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckman996
Great points regarding the batteries of today ... once a large company steps up and puts pressure on the manufactures to improve the quality of the cells vs. just their capacity - we will all benifit. The current packs are AWESOME - how much better do they really need to be? It would be great if they kept their "punch" longer making the need to buy new packs less often.
We did this it's called the Platinum 4800mAh LiPo: Safer then a NiMH, more power, level playing field, longer lifetime, less cost over the short term and big savings over the long term, less equipment needed to get maximum perfromance etc. etc.

Some of the tracks that we have noticed are growing there TC numbers are those using LiPo and Brushless it seems to be the magic formula for club racers as it put's then on an even equipment level from the pro's.

At Tamiya here in California many local drivers are going to LiPo and brushless as well as going to Mini Cooper and Direct drive cars to get the same fun for less then half the price of pro level TC's.
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Old 11-21-2006, 08:10 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
We did this it's called the Platinum 4800mAh LiPo: Safer then a NiMH, more power, level playing field, longer lifetime, less cost over the short term and big savings over the long term, less equipment needed to get maximum perfromance etc. etc.

Some of the tracks that we have noticed are growing there TC numbers are those using LiPo and Brushless it seems to be the magic formula for club racers as it put's then on an even equipment level from the pro's.

At Tamiya here in California many local drivers are going to LiPo and brushless as well as going to Mini Cooper and Direct drive cars to get the same fun for less then half the price of pro level TC's.
We've got two indoor tracks within fifty miles of us. One won't allow brushless or lipo unless four or more are willing to start a new class. We did, and this track adverages about 25-30 drivers a race. The other track allows 13.5 and lipos in the stock Tc class, and in the mod tc and 1/12th class as well. They double the turnout and the competition level in the classes. The place is just a class act all the way around. Have talked to the owners at the other place but to no avail at this point. No wonder the turnout, wish I knew how to forward this thread to their web site! Be Blessed
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Old 11-21-2006, 08:25 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T. Hodge
I also feel a big part is the batteries. We need to stop these batteries wars. GP4300, IB4200, IB4200SHV, IB4200WE. What the hell? These batteries are good enough to run a 7t mod motor for over 5 minutes however the ruling organizations through out the world do not put a stop to these new cells from the battery manufacturers being IB or GP. Where will batteries be in 1 year from now? Instead of these battery companies making new cells they need to work on making cell life LONGER.

Hopefully someone will step up and put an end to the battery of the month club. It will have to be a manufacturer like Orion, Trinity, SMC, etc.
Todd, I respectfully disagree. battery of the month is a term used by people to complain about what they "THINK" somebody else has that they don't. Battery power has never been better. It's my personal thought, that 99% of racers can still be quite competetive with LAST YEARS 3800's. I didn't say everybody, I said 99%. There are the top 100 or so drivers in the country that may feel they benefit from .01 volts. But that doesn't apply to the 99% of the racers that never even leave their local club to race.

There is another thread on this forum where EFRA has made legal 5 cell modified and claim it's "technically" faster per lap... These guys gave up a WHOLE CELL, not 1/100 of a volt.

Here's the thread.
here's the link to the thread.

This all points to batteries being, "more than fine, as is".

I will add that I personally have, WAY more motors than batteries. Battery of the month?!!!?!?!? My son managed to win 2 offroad regionals this summer on trashed 3300's. We club race with guys that still use 2400's and 3000's and are quite happy about it. They did manage to buy some newer motors though...

I can have 4 packs and run 3 quals and a main. If I want to compete in 19 turn, I'm gonna end up with about 10 motors to test and try. Going to stock? How many motors am I gonna buy? Same packs still work. Going to Cleveland this weekend? How many extra motors are some of those guys gonna end up with?

I'm guessing most of us have a few stock motors laying around. I have a few that put out 15-20% more power than others I own. I don't own any cells that put out 20% more voltage than other cells. I'd say the difference between the best and worst pack most of us own is maybe 2-3%, not 15-20% like some of the motor differences.

It's a motor thing, not a battery thing. Unless you're in the A-main at the nats, which 99.9% of us are not, and only pertains to say 20 people out of all of the rest of us...

C'mon, you're a .1%'er. Capable of making the big shows. You probably can make use of .01 volts now and then. But that isn't the case for 99.9% of the rest of us. And if this bums anybody out, you can be a 1%'er, and that would mean I wasn't including you...

Good debate, no harshness intended.
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:23 PM   #44
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Well, back in March of 2006, I bought some 3800's for the Texas State Championship. You can ask anyone that was there that the power I had was pretty phenominal compared to others. Fast forward to early september... Still have the 3800's but the 4200's were getting good. The power advantage that I had before disappeared. When I was tired of trying to keep up with Dumas on 3800's, I borrowed some 4200's from Team Tamale and he used mine. There is a big difference. I went faster and Tamale went slower by a few tenths of a lap.... I still couldn't keep up with Dumas Long story short, Im not a .1% but I can feel the difference and my lap times showed the difference.
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Old 11-21-2006, 09:36 PM   #45
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Bob-Stormer,

Very interesting point regarding the 1%ers... and this just furthers to support the statement that battery manufacturers need to freeze the production of newer capacity cells and concentrate on make the current cells even better. As you probably know as much as many of the senior racers in this forum, the cell technology has grown by HUGE amounts in the past 4 years. We are now at the pinnicle of sub-C battery technology and the variance between the 3800 and 4200 packs are less then the 20% that you mention ... however, as mentioned by a certain person in another thread that will remain nameless, it's not the consumer that drives the hobby - but rather the companies and ultimately the Ex-com. Maybe they need to que into this thread and leave their words of wisdom in reply to the suggestions listed here.
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