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Old 11-29-2006, 03:10 PM   #136
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Since this is in the public forum, I would like everyone else reading this to know the facts:
Chillicothe hasn't had a big race on the carpet for over 2 years, and now there isn't a carpet track there any more. fact.

Chillicothe has always had a bigger turnout for their Off-Road and put a tarp over the carpet track to pit for the off-roaders- which inturn made the floor warp and torn it up- so 3-4 years ago it wasn't worth going out there. The starch you picked up on your car from the track was ridiculous, and the drive time is 1.5 hours away. Fact.

You have only raced once at Fastlane (on Carpet) over a year and half ago. fact.

You have raced on several occasions on the Off-road track at Fastlane. Fact.

I wasn't in the On-road scene as much as I am today - I was more a off-roader and r/c boater. Fact

I find it interesting that you are so involved with the On-road scene in our area, but don't race On- Road there, but yet like to "debate" how to get a bigger turnout? There are some issues I agree with you on, but if you participated your opinions would probably be more valid.

Have a good day.
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:15 PM   #137
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If you guys want to race mod, lets do some mod sedan outdoors this summer with foam tires. No need to true them, just run them at full height and go. There's not a bunch of traction or tire wars, and you get a bunch of speed to play with. To me, mod racing is best for outdoor sedans and off-road. Doing it on the carpet is for the hardcore.
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:33 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by syndr0me
If you guys want to race mod, lets do some mod sedan outdoors this summer with foam tires. No need to true them, just run them at full height and go. There's not a bunch of traction or tire wars, and you get a bunch of speed to play with. To me, mod racing is best for outdoor sedans and off-road. Doing it on the carpet is for the hardcore.
you out of your mind. Summer is for NITRO!!

OH, MOD Nitro!
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Old 11-29-2006, 06:27 PM   #139
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I think it's time to take this off the public forum. You all will have a PM.
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Old 11-29-2006, 06:50 PM   #140
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The last 3 races chillicothe had on their carpet I never saw you there??? or did I just miss you?

"had" was a long time ago, last i heard anyone racing carpet there was from a pan oval racer in feb/mar 2005. i beleive they scheduled a road carpet race prior to that and canceled due to lack of entries.
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Old 11-29-2006, 06:50 PM   #141
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Wow I think you guys need to take this discusion back to the KS/MO thread, or talk about it on Fastlanes thread. You guys are starting to make our area look kinda bad in my opinion, and in front of the entire world at that. We have alot of cool guys around here, aand I'd like the rest of the world to continue thinking that.
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Old 11-30-2006, 11:30 AM   #142
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IMO, one of the biggest problems with all of R/C racing is the "three cars makes a class" phenomenon of recent times. I think it ultimately dilutes the overall turnout and racing quality, be it off road or on road or dirt oval. It promotes NOT following class structure or rules, and it thins out the herd to the point that no one is racing in large classes.

Instead of taking the stance of ANY real racing organization and setting up limited classes and structure, it was always left open for anyone to race whatever they wanted. Sure, it's great for noobies or out-of-towners to come out and know that hey won't be turned away, but how often does that happen? And if there was a structured KNOWN class to race in, who is to say that these racers wouldn't prepare to be in that class in the first place?

I wouldn't show up at an SCCA event with a car not built for any structured class and expect to be accommodated. It will NEVER happen.




Too many classes, too many options, too many choices. Not enough simplicity. Not enough focus on the "club" aspect of R/C racing. IMHO, if you want better touring car turnouts, set your club/track with Stock Rubber and Open Rubber and be done with it. Make the tires RP36 premounts as spec tires, and let it be known that these are the rules and these are the classes. People WILL race, and your class participation will be better for it.


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Old 11-30-2006, 12:13 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
How do you think brushed motor tuners who tune their 27T Stock motors to the point of running faster than most 19T Spec motors make a novice feel? If I showed up to the track knowing that without years of experience tuning motors, I would NEVER be competitive....well then I just would leave.
This an interesting argument that comes up time and time again and I think what we really need to look at is this

(I do not mean the following as anything personal to anyone and I am not sure if it even applies to anyoine on this thread but...)

What if somebody showed up to the track and realized that without years of driving expereience they would not be competitive and it had nothing to do with motor and more to do with lack if driving time?

At the track I run we have somebody show up at least once a month and no matter what they run they get owned their first day and chalk it up to not having the right power or equipment. So what do they do? They go out and "buy speed" then return ready to prove their worth only to fall short and many time get desouraged and disappear. Changing any rule would not have helped this type of person as they are simply are not ready for competition at this level or have an ego that does not let them admit skill is something that is earned through practice and not simply purchased. I will confidantly admit I am one of the fastest drivers at my track and this is because I have been there weekly for over 10 years not because I am a RC master or jing of skill it is simply a lot of practice. When I first went there I sucked plain and simple lucky for me I was willing to admit it and I never got intimidated. Now the reason I brought this up is are changing rules to help the "ego sensative" or are we doing it to keep our existing drivers and allow them a feesable scenario to attract new drivers?
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Old 11-30-2006, 12:23 PM   #144
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there's a lot of cool new stuff out there. For some guys it's hard to turn away.
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Old 11-30-2006, 12:36 PM   #145
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Just had to chime in here...

I think it is time someone "told it like it is"

Touring Car racing has become an elitist class of long-time racers who have evolved over the years to become the "skilled professionals" they are now. Just count the number of guys at your local track that have a decade of experience.... or more...

People wonder why newbies get discouraged....

I know, personally, if I walked into the track as a virgin and saw 20 guys, each with $1500-$2000 of equipment, truing tires, turning comms, running dynos and keeping their battery log books up to date... I'd walk right out. You can't compete with them. PERIOD. EVER.

You can try, as some do, but it just ain't gonna happen. These guys could drive a cinder block with wheels around the track faster than you'll EVER be able to with your shiny new T2 or whatever.

Problem 1: Too many "skilled professionals" mixed in with the "regular" drivers.

The reasoning is simple: If you only have 6 guys for 19t touring tonight, how can you justify placing the 2 "new guys" in a class by themselves? You can't (or the race director doesn't want to) so they get tossed in with the "fast guys" and get punted, bumped, yelled at or discouraged in some way from enjoying the experience. Disagree? How many times have you been thrown in a heat with a newbie only to approach the race director to try to get bumped to a different heat? Answer honestly now.

Problem 2: No one is willing to change anything.

Everyone has an opinion, no one has a solution. So we get this endless debate on why, what, who and where we need to fix all this. It goes on and on, just look through the threads and you could fill a 50 gallon drum with all the complaints. What we need is a solution. NOT more detailed explanation of "The State of the R/C Nation and how it affects me and my racing at club night"

I started a thread- Change the hobby for the better - TODAY. I asked people to offer their time and assistance to create an organized group to DO something to change the hobby and its structure. After umpteen thousands of views, umpteen hundreds of posts, and numerous requests for people to move their butts rather than their mouths, I got a grand total of ONE person who stepped up and offered actual help.

Now don't go getting your flame cannon ready, I love this hobby and want it to succeed. But something has to be done. Anyone care to get organized?

-Freq
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Old 11-30-2006, 12:40 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
What if somebody showed up to the track and realized that without years of driving expereience they would not be competitive and it had nothing to do with motor and more to do with lack if driving time?

At the track I run we have somebody show up at least once a month and no matter what they run they get owned their first day and chalk it up to not having the right power or equipment. So what do they do? They go out and "buy speed" then return ready to prove their worth only to fall short and many time get desouraged and disappear. Changing any rule would not have helped this type of person as they are simply are not ready for competition at this level or have an ego that does not let them admit skill is something that is earned through practice and not simply purchased. I will confidantly admit I am one of the fastest drivers at my track and this is because I have been there weekly for over 10 years not because I am a RC master or jing of skill it is simply a lot of practice. When I first went there I sucked plain and simple lucky for me I was willing to admit it and I never got intimidated. Now the reason I brought this up is are changing rules to help the "ego sensative" or are we doing it to keep our existing drivers and allow them a feesable scenario to attract new drivers?
I realize, as most people do, that without driving time you won't be competitive. I also realize that professional motor tuners and people with time to rebuild motors constantly will always the advantage over those of us who don't have the time or money...at least with brushed motors. That's why I believe that brushless motors and classes will be better for the novice drivers. They'll know (like I do) that the equipment is all really close and if they are losing...it's because we suck as drivers. Brushless motors make the whole beginning process a lot less intimidating and will help bring in new blood.
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Old 11-30-2006, 01:22 PM   #147
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I got into this hobby to fulfill my Walter Mitty racing fantasies. I thought the idea, at least partially was to mimic full size racing. The weekend race is just the end result of the preparation. Motor tuning, battery maintenance, car setups/maintenance, and practice are all part of that preparation. But it seems to me that it is becoming more about instant gratification. No one wants to sit and experiment with brushes, springs, and armature prep to get the most out of their motors. The idea now is to bolt a brushless into your car only to be removed when the bolts break because of rust. No muss no fuss. Instead of investing the time on developing a setup that works for them on their current car they abandon it in favor of the car of the month and slap on the reigning champion’s setup with idea that it is going to raise them out of the pits to set the track record. Since I have owned Xray back to the original T1, I can say that for an average club racer the difference between a T1FOC and a T2’007 is probably 10-15 seconds over a 5min race with 9.5-10second laps. So if the track’s best are turning 30-31 laps in 5min and you are in the 25-27 lap range a brand spanking new T2’007 won’t get you there. Neither will the latest “team” batteries. The actual average voltage difference between a mid range 3800 pack and a top 4200 is lees than .05 of a volt over a 6 cell pack, just .1 of a volt over the last of the 3300s. That difference is down the tubes with a couple of turns taken too wide, or a slam into the wall, not to mention being marshalled. That is difference not going to raise anyone out of the “B” main to fighting for the lead in the “A”.
The difference in voltage and a new car can be made up simply by practicing. Running laps. That boring, repetitious, and slow process we all MUST do to get better. A thoughtful practice with lap time goals will pay more dividends than getting a car and batteries from Paul Lemieux himself. If you have a FK’05 and practiced and dropped your lap times by just a half second you have just realize the advantage a T2’007 with “world” batteries would have done for you. And saved about $650. This is not an easy hobby. It has a steep learning curve. And that curve can not be cheated by throwing money at it. Simply because the guy holding the transmitter is the weakest link. If a person does not have the time to give to the hobby then they need to adjust their expectations. You HAVE to prepare your car. You HAVE to maintain your motors. You HAVE to practice.
Lastly we need to stop blaming the car and battery manufacturers for coming out with new products before the old ones are worn out. If there wasn’t a market there wouldn’t be a product. If Xray didn’t think they could sell the T2’007 just 8 months after introducing the T2 they would not have released it. Same with the battery people. They supply a demand. No company is in business NOT to make money. We are the demand. We influence the market and the hobby every time we pull out our wallets. We need to take the responsibility, whether it is keeping our wallets closed, to admitting we don’t practice at the track, to actually voting when ROAR puts something out to the membership.
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Old 11-30-2006, 01:37 PM   #148
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Ever go to an SCCA race and see what the most popular classes are? Spec Miata... The rules are so tight on the cars, there's no tinkering witht he motors it's all about setup and driving.... If you want to tinker with motors it's time to go pro.... Club racers are just that....
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:11 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
Ever go to an SCCA race and see what the most popular classes are? Spec Miata... The rules are so tight on the cars, there's no tinkering witht he motors it's all about setup and driving.... If you want to tinker with motors it's time to go pro.... Club racers are just that....
But which cars are the most exciting to watch? The ones that look like they would be the most fun from the driver's seat? T2 and American Sedan!
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Old 11-30-2006, 02:18 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impulse_racer
....This is not an easy hobby. It has a steep learning curve. And that curve can not be cheated by throwing money at it. Simply because the guy holding the transmitter is the weakest link. If a person does not have the time to give to the hobby then they need to adjust their expectations. You HAVE to prepare your car. You HAVE to maintain your motors. You HAVE to practice. .....
Well said.

The brushless idea (and most people know I am an advocate) is to even the field and take the "voodoo" out of the equation.

We need to look at possibly creating a sanctioning body strictly for Club Racing. Having a set of rules that all local tracks can adhere to on "regular" race nights. Remember, WE MAKE THE RULES. Our dollars drive the hobby. Creating a new organization that has in place strict guidlines and some marketing/promotion would be the shot in the arm this hobby needs. But something like this has to start somewhere. We essentially created our own class here for 4300/LiPo/Foam, set the rules, and the results have been wonderful. It CAN be done. The more people that join in and agree the easier the idea will spread. Trust me, if you have 6-10 guys that come to your track and they all want to race Tamiya Tanks on an obstical course, I can't imagine a track that is doing so well they would turn you away.

YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

I'll start by picking a name USTCA - US Touring Car Association. Hmm?

So whats the first rule?
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