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Old 11-10-2006, 11:40 AM   #46
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As much as basing levels on skill would be nice it goes against human nature. Most will not want to be considered a lower level and will feel their being held back regardless of there skill. And then others will hold themselves back for the false glory of an easy victory.
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:50 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by MrBlack
As much as basing levels on skill would be nice it goes against human nature. Most will not want to be considered a lower level and will feel their being held back regardless of there skill. And then others will hold themselves back for the false glory of an easy victory.
Well said.

I agree that class structure changes may be needed but, as has been discussed before, making that change will be one of the hardest obstacles we face.

Most people do NOT want to be classified.

As stated, we need organizers to step up and organize our efforts. Lets worry about that first.

Who is interested in taking the lead in the East? or West? Once decided, that will give us a core to work out from.
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:57 AM   #48
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We Seattle Indoor Raceway took the approach of motors being the main class determination. Not driver skill, $$ or anything else. Those classes are based loosely off Tamiya's motor structure. World Touring(open Mod), GT1(19T), GT2(Stock), GT3(Silvercan). Guess which class has our most consistent turn-out. Yep GT3, locally we have a ton of comments made about the slow cars that are raced.

The part that noone sees is that we have created a whole class of drivers that are now starting to travel to National Races, ROAR, TCS etc. Some of them coming out as A-Main contenders. The key is that all of themm are learning and having fun racing. That is being instilled on the next group of guys coming up learning to drive. The "fast" guys are now learning themselves along with teaching the "newbs". Those fast guys are now moving up in the other classes as tey see fit not what us as a track have mandated.

As for some other things we also have a track owner who is a promoter first not a racer. He does love to run the cars but he loves to see all the racers laughing and ENJOYING their time at his facility. We some of the established racers rolled our eyes at first but are now seeing the light.

As stated by a few others just above this, you need to help the newbs. You were there once and you also stand to learn just as much from what they do along with your own racing. Think of it as having a 2-3 car team and being the head engineer. While your set-up holds track record, they might not be able to drive it. You then have to make their car fast, you both learn.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:10 PM   #49
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I think that minimizing the class for Electric on road would be one of the better ways to go. One of the major concerns with racing is it takes so long and it seems even longer when when you have 2-3 cars per heat just so everyone is happy. my suggestion would be to have a true novice class so that they can race what they have as long as it is the right chasis.
second would be sportsman stock so a novice could move up to. 19 and mod would just be open for any racer willing to sign up.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:14 PM   #50
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all of a sudden it gets quiet out there. Come on guys that have the influence.
MR. Black? i also know of a shop that wants to run fun races in alhabra. this sounds like a good thing.

The experienced racers all have their established classes and tracks they frequent, the future is attracting new people and/or classes that are low cost and fun to run in. see Tamiyas fun series.

i would like to hear from some of the manufactures for sponsorship.
when I worked at American Honda Motor Company, I would get the company to sponsor the local motorcross races with gear for the class winners.

wn
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:33 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
R/C Racing is a great alternative to racing real cars. It requires the same mechanical and mental skills at a fraction of the cost with no risk of injury or death. If you want more racers, R/C Racing needs to be marketed towards wannabe racers and racing fans, not kids.
I think Rick has hit this right on the head. I have found that my experience in racing to be shared with a LOT of R/C'ers.

I got into R/C as a kid with my paper route money and it moved on to racing because I was always into cars. When I was old enough, I got a real car and eventually started racing the big stuff. Next I found sanity and settled down with kids. The idea of, "My Daddy died racing cars..." isn't cool, combined with the outrageous budget needed means I am back into R/C racing.

Everywhere I go in R/C I am running into and talking to ex-Motocrossers, go-Karters, Saturday night bullringers, and street draggin' idiots, like myself... The point I believe Rick was making (not to put words in your mouth) and that I am trying to make is that there is a specific breed of person that is going to be more inclined to RACE R/C cars. And THAT person is the one we're after...

If you are looking at the whole group of people who buy R/C cars and making judgements on where the R/C racing industry should go, then you are doing us a disservice. I think this really has to focus on how to find the people who want to race R/C but haven't discovered us yet, or they don't know how to find us. If you have an RTR person that becomes a racer, great, but it'll be easier to start with a racer and turn them into an R/C'er...

I believe the whole R/C racing industry balances on the LHS's initial experience. If the salesperson is worth their salt they'll be able to hand the INTERESTED potential customer a flyer and say this is what they race, when, and where. Then the customer then has a chance to become a racer and the LHS has a chance to sell more stuff.

If not, then there's another person that's going to buy a useless RTR monster truck that will break everytime they hit the curb out in front of their house.

So, if there is a culture that you want to change then start with the salespeople at your LHS...

-Sean
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:20 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nagatahawk
all of a sudden it gets quiet out there. Come on guys that have the influence.
MR. Black? i also know of a shop that wants to run fun races in alhabra. this sounds like a good thing.
I have created a set of rules for both my own track (@ Tamiya USA) and for anyone else that wants to listen that can be applied to all manufacturers of On-Road Electric. ( I have no business telling the offroad or Nitro guys what to do as I do not race them heavily so I would hope there are passionate drivers out there fighting the same fight for them.

I think that we need to have ruling bodies concentrate on there own class of racing and not force Electric guys to go by rules set by Nitro guys etc. and maybe if that works having a ruling party to keep them working together in the end may work. Like the FIA which though they do Rally and Formula One allow different individuals to set the guidelines for WRC and F-1 seperately.
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Old 11-10-2006, 02:29 PM   #53
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Do to some requests I have decided to put forth the following document.

It is a loose set of rules I had written up off the top of my head and I am sure can be improved upon they where written several months ago and do not reflect the views of Team Orion, Peak, Tamiya or any of my other sponsors. They are simply thoughts running through my head I felt needed to be put down before forgot (the whole 5 lbs. in a 1lbs. bag scenario).

For those that have asked for them here they are:
Attached Files
File Type: doc aamra.doc (51.0 KB, 196 views)
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"Racing is about the journey not the destination if it wasn't it would simply be called Arriving"

"The solution is people need to spend more of their efforts on promoting and finding more people to race with, rather then a personal quest to form a class that they can win at."
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Old 11-10-2006, 03:03 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
I think maybe we need to seriously consider that maybe the hardcore sanctionning bodies should be left to regulate the hardcore pro's and the club racer should actually have seprate set of rules?
Something else I've been saying for a long time.If your local 1:1 short track ran Nextel Cup rules they wouldn't have any racers.R/C is kind of odd in that the same equipment is used at the lowest hobby level as the world championship level.To put in full-size car terms,it would be like showing up to an autocross with a current F1 car-because you had to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
The RTR crowd is the biggest group whether the racers want to admit it or not. The racer whether he will admit it or not needs compitition and facilities to race more then trick stuff. So I feel the racer needs to worry more about attracting others to his events and having places to hold them.

If you took Seg. A (50 racers) and gave them Tyco cars and had them race on a prepared purpose built track

They would have more fun then Seg. B (4 racers) running hi-end TC on a a parking lot track.

On top of all this the Racers Seg. A could do it for less money and the Industry supporting would make more!

Are we wanting to race or are we wanting trophies and a toy to brag about? This is the real problem we need to solve.
And the 4 racers in segment B would be looking down their noses at those 50 that "aren't real racers".There is a lot of eliteism in on-road,but that is a problem that can only be dealt with on a personal level.It's a tough sell because there are a lot of short-sighted hobby shop owners out there that think it's better to have 10 serious racers that spend $100 a week than to have 50 hobbyists that spend $40 a week.And who wants to make or sell a tire that lasts a whole season?

On-road racing is not just one simple thing.Indoor/outdoor,asphalt/carpet,so there is probably not going to be one simple answer that is the solution for everyone,everywhere.It would be a good thing to have a common place to gather ideas,and experiments towards the specific issue of local,not national racing.A "clearing house" of sorts-we tried this and it worked,we tried this and it didn't-but maybe it will for someone else-that sort of thing."Worldwide" uniformity does'nt seem to be working so well.

p.s.-Lipo could be real savior for club racing because you can't abuse them.
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Old 11-10-2006, 03:09 PM   #55
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p.s.-Lipo could be real savior for club racing because you can't abuse them.
hehe.... We've see what happens when you do....

I gotta admit, I pumped 10 amps into one of my 12th scale pack last week....
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Old 11-10-2006, 03:33 PM   #56
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I have pumped 10A into my 4800 Platinums many times but that was for testing purposes only not a reccomendation although I will admit nothing bad happened and I still run the pack weekly. (your results may very, do not try this at home, I am a trained professional LOL!)
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"Racing is about the journey not the destination if it wasn't it would simply be called Arriving"

"The solution is people need to spend more of their efforts on promoting and finding more people to race with, rather then a personal quest to form a class that they can win at."
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Old 11-10-2006, 05:15 PM   #57
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At thetrack where I currently run we've go a fairly consistent 15 guys. That would be great if we only had one class and one skill level. Any changes or bracketing need to be flexable to allow for small numbers as well.
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Old 11-10-2006, 07:08 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Warhawk 1
At thetrack where I currently run we've go a fairly consistent 15 guys. That would be great if we only had one class and one skill level. Any changes or bracketing need to be flexable to allow for small numbers as well.
yea but we all suck....
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Old 11-10-2006, 08:52 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by jiml

Eliminate Stock!!! "Stock" hasn't been stock since they allowed rebuildable motors. The whole idea of stock was a class where you didn't have to worry about racing the guy with years of experience who knew exactly what to do to a motor. If I can buy a brand new motor, and the guy next to me changes brushes, springs, and whatever and gets 5,000 more RPM than my brand new motor, how is that stock???



From another angle, the X-Ray T2'007 goes for about $400 (cheaper here in NYC). A good speed control is $150. Digital steering servo $100. That's $650 already, no batteries, no tires, no body, TO RUN IN STOCK???!!!



What we need is a true spec class, where the chassis, motor, batteries (that will be a good trick), and maybe down to tires and gear ratio are set and that's what you race. There will always be an open class (that's where 19 turn comes in) for the guys who want to spend the money, but there really need to be a budget class for the "hobbyists."
'

I think you have a good point JimL. What is now called stock is far from stock. I cut my motor and try to maximize my motor power but can't replace brushes every run like some of the faster guys do.

Maybe there should be a spec batt, ESC (27 turn limit), chassis, and Mabuchi motor to even the playing field to new comers for Novice class. Keeps the cost down. Also if the local track would just loan the transponders to the novice racers. They pay a race fee, buy a bunch of parts that evening and still pay for transponder rental. It is not that appealing to the novice anymore.

Also reverting back to three classes: Novice, Sportsman, and Pro. It recreates "B" and "C" mains to reassure everyone that shows up that they will have enough racers to run a class that evening. You still have an encentive to do well while qualifing, because we all want to be in the "A" main. I've seen guys practice all day and only race the main because everybody makes the "A" main. I feel that is the wrong way to approach racing. Just my opinion.
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Old 11-10-2006, 09:55 PM   #60
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I hope this makes sense to you.What you are trying to do is help create an awareness of clubs that are out there and to generate new racers.Correct?So if thats what you want to do you need to first have a good relationship with the hobby stores.Thats where your largest exposure will be generated for your new club racers.Ask shop owners to mention your club or make flyers to be handed out to anybody buying a car or truck.Have classes that will allow anybody with a car to race with you guys.Brushless motors or brushed motors.
When I first started I had a Tamiya Nissan Kingcab.That was about 15 years ago.When I went in to the track here I saw those cars and trucks and was embarrassed to get mine out of the car.Somebody spoke to me and a group of guys talked me into running it they even gave me a motor and changed some things on it.Nothing helped that truck turn except for the wall behind the burm.The most important thing that happened that night was that the racers there spoke to me and I had a blast and I was hooked.
Second you need to have classes that are cheap for racers to run in and not pressure anybody to run in any certain class.The only time that should be done is if somebody totally dominates a lower class.If somebody wants to keep running lets say a silver can motor and that is your novice or begginer class motor size you could create a class that will alow the more experienced drivers to still race with what they want but with better drivers.After all this is for fun.Remember your club racing and not competing for national championships.On a club level most if not all racers will ever go to a national event.This idea may make for longer race days but that can be dealt with when the time comes.
You could also have used or cheap cars there and invite spectators to run those during down time between heats or rounds.They are there to and maybe by driving once or twice they may catch the bug and buy one for themselves.
But the most important thing is to have a zero tolerance for bad attitudes and fits of rages at any club event.You may have a potential racer decide not to race because he saw someone throw a fit on the drivers stand.

Good Luck with this. We need this.
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