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Old 11-24-2006, 11:55 PM   #361
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Doesnt anybody think its funny, that most peolpe who defend these rule changes here work for the RC industry? I really believe that LRP, Team Orion and others dont want to read in the magazines about their motors blowing up. But hey, guys, there is an easy solution: build motors that last!

Maybe 5-cell is a good decision for very big races. But it is also a sign for the hobby and club racer, because he cant use any of his equipment (I am sure entry level cars will stay with 6-cell, or will Tamiya for example change their kits?) at a race. Off course it is that way right now, but it makes a big difference if you cant use it because it isnt legal, or if you can try a race with what you got and then want to upgrade for going faster. So I think that this rule change is very shortsighted and is only in regard to the top level racers and will distract newcomers. To prove that point I asked a few guys who started out this season what they think about it, and the answers where all the same: "what the f*** !!! I will stay with 6 cell and just run for fun, without racing!).

So, everybody knows my opinion, shame to LRP and Orion who in my opinion stand behind that decision.
I am out of this discussion, we will see who is right in the next season!
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Old 11-25-2006, 12:12 AM   #362
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What utter nonsense. Build good motors instead of turning Joe Racers' equipment obsolete to suit some manufaturers' buisness model.
Screw'em. We can race as we please without playing the obedient lapdog.
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Old 11-25-2006, 01:25 AM   #363
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What part of the following sentence that has already been posted so many times you don't understand?

Problem occurs moslty to our tracks (Europe) becuase of their size and the stress we put on the motors
Problem is that changes/upgrades on motors and esc is at slower rate compared to batteries. Manufacturers can't keep up with the batteries change rate (2-3 months), I believe mostly because of required testing needed and more complexity. So since THIS is the case, EFRA decided to reduce the number of cells.
In addition with the high power batteries AND highr power BL cars ARE NOT slower.

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Old 11-25-2006, 02:56 AM   #364
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Drifter,

You are really not paying ANY attention to what is written in this thread by other people.

OK, we get your point of view. Your local racers at your local track are fine with 6 cells. Thank you for making it clear this to us.
By repeating the same story over and over again, you are just loosing credit.

If your local racing is fine with 6 cell open mod, then keep it this way.
If you think that its LRP and ORION behind this rule change, then you have NO clue of what is going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
So nobody finished then? Every single motor failed for every driver, all weekend long?

How many is to many? How few is an un-realistic expectation of a ......
Bob,
Like a said before, setting your motor so it is 100% reliable is not a solution. When the level of competition is very close, we are talking about 2-3 seconds difference max. after a 5 minute run, there is always "that" person who can afford to tune his motor right on the limit and beyond and thus have a power advantage. With the 3 qual. runs format, and the 3 finals format, he then has the ability to TQ and win the race even if he has three motor failures during the race day, ex. two during the Qual runs (only the best out of three rounds counts), and one during the finals (two best results out of three count).
In this respect, the rest of the field, who carry only two arms during a race day, simply cannot compete against those who have the budget to change armatures every run.
So while in the past we were looking for the best cells, and only those with the larger budgets and better connections could get a hold of them, now we are forced in carrying a large number of armatures, as you will need at least 2-4 armatures to test, in order to find the best compromise of speed and reliability.
Because really, in what other way do you test your equipment? You start with a conservative setting, and you start to push the equipment more and more until you have the desired poweroutput, and then bam, the armature brakes. So you go back out with a little less timing, get blown away by the guy who can afford to risk, and get discouraged and eventually never get back to racing.
So this is the problem we are facing in Europe and it has a big effect in open mod racing.

The U.S. market for sure is different, and by what you have said, a change of rule is not necessary, so I hope for you guys, ROAR chooses not to change the number of cells.
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Old 11-25-2006, 03:16 AM   #365
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How comes that all the time someone from a manufacturer posts that you feel it's always only business talk? That can be VERY frustrating since I'm also a die-hard racer with 20years of passion for this hobby! I want this to be fun for everyone as well.

For sure manufacturers have an interest to have healthy classes, because if there's no racers anymore there's no market and no business... Easy to understand...
The rule change in Europe is definitely not about increasing sales for anyone, but about having TC modified survive in Europe! I'd say that well over 50% of the racers did not enjoy the 2006 outdoor TC-modified season in Europe with the way things worked with the existing rules. No matter what product they ran or if they were factory- or privateer-drivers!

The member country delegates, EFRA officials, privateer drivers and manufacturers all proposed changes for the TC modified class and therefore the 5-cell rule is enforced for 2007 in Europe.
Btw, decisions in Europe are not made by manufacturers. They take place at the official AGM in Brussels by each countries delegates. Some manufacturers were present as spectators, but they have no voting rights whatsoever!

And please let's not go into "who's fault" equipment failures are or "who should have done his homework" better again, this is simply BS (sorry...). Without accepting motors & speedos which would cost probably twice as much as they do now, the problems could not be solved with running 6 cells. Period...


@Drifter: you could not be more wrong! Did you attend any of the big events in 2006 and saw what was happening yourself?
In Germany TC modified is close to not existing anymore because racers where fed up to have failing equipment and making the hobby even more expensive, this is not just for big races but also on local level!
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Old 11-25-2006, 04:17 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
So ironically when you had the chance to slow down on your own and simply drop a few pinion teeth to save equipment (if that's what was thought to be the issue), nobody did, and the sanctioning bodys made the decision for you with a cell change, rather than solve the motor issues you claim to face.
An interesting view. Many of us have actualyl tested gearing etc. If you "dropped a few teeth" do you have any idea what would happen??

I do, the motor would effectively Free rev and just fire the wire straight off the comm tabs/rotor explode - delete as applicable for running brushed/b/l. It's the same as running a 7 turn in your hand off a 6 cell pack, it will blow.
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Old 11-25-2006, 05:27 AM   #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattW
An interesting view. Many of us have actualyl tested gearing etc. If you "dropped a few teeth" do you have any idea what would happen??

I do, the motor would effectively Free rev and just fire the wire straight off the comm tabs/rotor explode - delete as applicable for running brushed/b/l. It's the same as running a 7 turn in your hand off a 6 cell pack, it will blow.
It's probably what happened to the second motor I used, as I geared it the same as the other one not knowing what to gear it at (same turns motors, but 1st was a MR edition and the other was a Spashett edition which has a groove in the arm) but as i went on the straight at the end of the first lap it blew straight away.
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Old 11-25-2006, 05:35 AM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
So nobody finished then? Every single motor failed for every driver, all weekend long?

How many is to many? How few is an un-realistic expectation of a performance item? At what point should something like a motor or brush be looked at as having a limited life cycle based on performance, and be expected to fail exponentially as you go faster with it?

At what point would you be willing to trade durability for a faster lap time, with a more limited life on a part?

Is there ever a point where a person wouldn't blame the manufacturer of an item for a failure?

If motors are failing at an alarming rate, and you blokes aren't talking about it on the forums and are surprised that others don't know about it, how are the manufacturers supposed to address a problem, that once again, may or may not exist, if nobody talks about it?

You lost two arms, it happens. Did everybody lose 2 or 3 motors? Was the main canceled because nobody finished? Probably not.

I'm not being argumentative, I'm trying to find out. You say there is an issue, fine, I'd love to hear about it, we'd all love to hear about it. Show us some event data for everybody, not just one guy, or two. Who didn't finish, who did.

You said I don't get it, that's cool, I have no problem with that. Show me what I don't know.
So what ? We don't talk about it on rc tech and x-ray forum so it doesn't exist ? Look harder.

Last BRCA season has seen motors/speedos blow up for privateers as well as sponsored drivers. I don't have a count but it goes by more than a couple for the whole season, more like a dozen a meeting, brushed and brushless put together. Even Andy Moore blew motors, and I can tell you he wasn't in a position where he could afford to have a bad meeting as the two first meetings were disastrous for him due to interferences.

EFRA took a decision that may only be short sighted, but it's better than none, and better than 4-cell, period.
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Old 11-25-2006, 08:32 AM   #369
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@John: I dont want to discuss this rulechange, because it allready is a fact (so yes, you are right, I am not paying attention to some of the posts written by other people, thats not because I dont read ist, ist just because i THINK that they are wrong!). What I did is write down my personal point of few, which for sure is focused at guys who just started out and are thinking about starting to race, because I think that those guys are very important to the hobby and I am not sure if their needs where adressed enough. Because I was sure that i made my point clear (even if it took more post than where planned) I wrote, that I will not take part in this discussion any longer, so there is no need to get personal, just because you know different!
And off course does the opinion of Oscar and Reto (and of course many others) influence the guys deciding at the EFRA meeting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by burito
@Drifter: you could not be more wrong!
I really wish that I am wrong and you are right, to know for sure we will have to wait till the end of the next season!

So thats it, as promissed before I am out but will read for sure !

Last edited by Drifter; 11-25-2006 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 11-25-2006, 09:07 AM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifter
And off course does the opinion of Oscar and Reto (and of course many others) influence the guys deciding at the EFRA meeting!
So did you know that Oscar was in favour of keeping the rules as they are, and it's partially thanks to him that we have 5-cells and not 4-cells ?
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Old 11-25-2006, 12:32 PM   #371
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Would it be possible to make some sort of spec device that would limit the current to the motor or limiting the voltage from the batteries? Just a box soldered to the motor wires or from the battery.
Like a rev limiter in fullscale race engines.
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Old 11-27-2006, 12:42 AM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonman
Would it be possible to make some sort of spec device that would limit the current to the motor or limiting the voltage from the batteries? Just a box soldered to the motor wires or from the battery.
Like a rev limiter in fullscale race engines.
YES Moonman.
That will most likely be the next, since limiting the number of batteries are a short term solution. After the AGM meeting the talking about this subject continued, and we were told that in RC airplanes, they use some kind of limiter between the batteries and motor - And it shouldnt be some electronic hokus pokus, but a very simple device, easy to control at technical inspection.
Tests will be made during the in/outdoor season to see if this could be the golden solution.

Søren
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:36 AM   #373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonman
Would it be possible to make some sort of spec device that would limit the current to the motor or limiting the voltage from the batteries? Just a box soldered to the motor wires or from the battery.
Like a rev limiter in fullscale race engines.
Yes it's possible as Søren says, the limiter would need to be an electronic device to limit the current or power. It would be a simple electronic device that could be handed out to the drivers at the start of a meeting so nobody could cheat. As only competition racing has the 'problems' needing a 'solution' then everybody else who drives cars for fun would not be affected. LiPo batteries etc and 'industry standard' 6 cell stick packs could still be used.

It might have been better to introduce limiters first so that changing the number of cells we race with in TC would not have been necessary. Who knows it may turn out to be - if things don't work out with 5 cells or 4 cells then it might have to be limiters used in future!
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Old 11-27-2006, 03:37 AM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry_S
Yes it's possible as Søren says, the limiter would need to be an electronic device to limit the current or power. It would be a simple electronic device that could be handed out to the drivers at the start of a meeting so nobody could cheat. As only competition racing has the 'problems' needing a 'solution' then everybody else who drives cars for fun would not be affected. LiPo batteries etc and 'industry standard' 6 cell stick packs could still be used.

It might have been better to introduce limiters first so that changing the number of cells we race with in TC would not have been necessary. Who knows it may turn out to be - if things don't work out with 5 cells or 4 cells then it might have to be limiters used in future!
I realy don´t think this is the future, as then everybody need to buy this gadget also...
Should all clubs in the world buy it in for there races?
No, sulutions need to be simple. 5-cell is simple.
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Old 11-27-2006, 03:40 AM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonman
Would it be possible to make some sort of spec device that would limit the current to the motor or limiting the voltage from the batteries? Just a box soldered to the motor wires or from the battery.
Like a rev limiter in fullscale race engines.
Limiting the current won't limit the revs. My speedo was limited to 60A when I blew those motors, they were still as fast in the straight.
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