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Old 11-24-2006, 03:27 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Nathan Parker
Hence this is why this has been an EFRA vote for the european market

Interesting why ROAR has gone 4 cell then
More interesting that none of the North Americans asked for it, and it's being un-democratically pushed in our faces, over situations that don't appear to exist in the North American market. And the majority of the people that hear about it respond with, "WHAT??? are you kidding me?!?!?..."

It would be the same debate in Europe if some rule that really only effects North America was subsequently made legal for EFRA.
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:31 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
More interesting that none of the North Americans asked for it, and it's being un-democratically pushed in our faces, over situations that don't appear to exist in the North American market.

It would be the same debate in Europe if some silly rule that really only effects North America was subsequently made legal for EFRA.
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:33 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
More interesting that none of the North Americans asked for it, and it's being un-democratically pushed in our faces, over situations that don't appear to exist in the North American market.

It would be the same debate in Europe if some rule that really only effects North America was subsequently made legal for EFRA.
Only time will tell if either of the rule changes made will help solve the problems.

Personally I am looking forward to 5cell Brushless and a lighter more nimble car
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:35 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
More interesting that none of the North Americans asked for it, and it's being un-democratically pushed in our faces, over situations that don't appear to exist in the North American market.

It would be the same debate in Europe if some rule that really only effects North America was subsequently made legal for EFRA.
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:36 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Nathan Parker
Only time will tell if either of the rule changes made will help solve the problems.

Personally I am looking forward to 5cell Brushless and a lighter more nimble car
I'm looking forward to Brushless and LiPO, a lighter, faster AND more Nimble car...
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:46 PM   #351
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Let's give this a chance here in europe and see if this is the way to go, we can discus here to the end of time and not agree

If this is what efra wants so let us try this and see what we can learn from it!

Anf if you dont want to race with 5 cells so race in a other class, there plenty of other classes to race in even in TC
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Old 11-24-2006, 04:40 PM   #352
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Bob, simple, the motors. I have actually said this all along. The motors are not able to cope with what is being thrown at them. Ideally you would change the motors, however, it seems that isn't going to happen. So i'm not sure what else can be done. I'm not totally sold on 5 cell, but prepared to give it a chance.
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Old 11-24-2006, 05:13 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by MattW
Bob, simple, the motors. I have actually said this all along. The motors are not able to cope with what is being thrown at them. Ideally you would change the motors, however, it seems that isn't going to happen. So i'm not sure what else can be done. I'm not totally sold on 5 cell, but prepared to give it a chance.
So ironically when you had the chance to slow down on your own and simply drop a few pinion teeth to save equipment (if that's what was thought to be the issue), nobody did, and the sanctioning bodys made the decision for you with a cell change, rather than solve the motor issues you claim to face. Now you have to go slower anyway, spending more money in upgrades down the road to do it?

Your goal now will be to get the car to go as fast as it was... <shakes head>
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Old 11-24-2006, 05:31 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
So ironically when you had the chance to slow down on your own and simply drop a few pinion teeth to save equipment (if that's what was thought to be the issue), nobody did, and the sanctioning bodys made the decision for you with a cell change, rather than solve the motor issues you claim to face. Now you have to go slower anyway, spending more money in upgrades down the road to do it?

Your goal now will be to get the car to go as fast as it was... <shakes head>
No. Faster! But without burning everything up in the process. Thats the beuty!
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Old 11-24-2006, 05:57 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
So ironically when you had the chance to slow down on your own and simply drop a few pinion teeth to save equipment (if that's what was thought to be the issue), nobody did, and the sanctioning bodys made the decision for you with a cell change, rather than solve the motor issues you claim to face. Now you have to go slower anyway, spending more money in upgrades down the road to do it?

Your goal now will be to get the car to go as fast as it was... <shakes head>
Look mate, you have no idea what's been going on in europe during the whole 2006 season. Some of the people who are talking to here have a lot more experience than you can imagine, and are reasonable drivers.

I too thought is was all a question of gearing/tuning, until i did a single national round and blew 2 motors, one in each final. Both motors i had borrowed, and I hadn't changed anything to my gearing for the first final, I was properly geared and timing was conservative since I'd borrowed the motors.

The only reason they blew up only in the finals is that the cells were on their 3rd charge and delivered all their power, as opposed to the qualifying run where they were "only" on their 2nd run. I could feel the difference in power and by 2 minutes, the arm had come out of balance, the motor started to get very hot and ultimately it threw a wind in the last 30s.

As far as I'm concerned, I totally agree with MattW, the motors should have been fixed, not the amount of cells. However this wasn't the case, or only for brushless at least, so i suppose 5-cell and a lighter car will help.
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:04 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by TRF415boy
Look mate, you have no idea what's been going on in europe during the whole 2006 season. Some of the people who are talking to here have a lot more experience than you can imagine, and are reasonable drivers.

I too thought is was all a question of gearing/tuning, until i did a single national round and blew 2 motors, one in each final. Both motors i had borrowed, and I hadn't changed anything to my gearing for the first final, I was properly geared and timing was conservative since I'd borrowed the motors.
So nobody finished then? Every single motor failed for every driver, all weekend long?

How many is to many? How few is an un-realistic expectation of a performance item? At what point should something like a motor or brush be looked at as having a limited life cycle based on performance, and be expected to fail exponentially as you go faster with it?

At what point would you be willing to trade durability for a faster lap time, with a more limited life on a part?

Is there ever a point where a person wouldn't blame the manufacturer of an item for a failure?

If motors are failing at an alarming rate, and you blokes aren't talking about it on the forums and are surprised that others don't know about it, how are the manufacturers supposed to address a problem, that once again, may or may not exist, if nobody talks about it?

You lost two arms, it happens. Did everybody lose 2 or 3 motors? Was the main canceled because nobody finished? Probably not.

I'm not being argumentative, I'm trying to find out. You say there is an issue, fine, I'd love to hear about it, we'd all love to hear about it. Show us some event data for everybody, not just one guy, or two. Who didn't finish, who did.

You said I don't get it, that's cool, I have no problem with that. Show me what I don't know.

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As far as I'm concerned, I totally agree with MattW, the motors should have been fixed, not the amount of cells.
And I agree with that. We are on the same page. What a few of us are hoping, as it relates to ROAR, is that we have some say in the outcome. By voicing our opinions, rather than having other people fix problems that may or may not exist for us, and without looking at all the options and/or addressing the wrong problem.

The only reason most of us were on the EFRA thread was to get an understanding of it, so we could help ROAR make a more informed decision should it arise. And interestigly enough, it has reared it's head.
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Old 11-24-2006, 10:46 PM   #357
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The thing is that paying customer have run classes into the ground before.

Pro-10 and 4WD Dirt Oval are two good examples of classes that got out of control and died becuase guy wanted to go faster and faster to the poin beginers had no place to start out. It was 100mph or nothing so to speak.

Touring cars are a big deal. The industry want to protect this class so it has a long term future. If we go to 4 or 5 cells it will have zero impact on the popularity of the class.

Just like oval some guys will quit but they will be replaced by the newcomers and a year or two later most of the guys that quit will see how well its working and come back.

Guys just want to race. They have motor choices so they can go just as fast or faster than they are going now even with 4 cells.

This is not about going slower. This is about fear of change.
Fear of change....that is funny. I run brushless...do you? Both mod and 19T. The only reason I don't run LIPO is that I owe my loyalty to someone and will not run anything other than his product in my cars. When he sees fit to come out with a LIPO I will run that also...Fear of change.....please.........
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Old 11-24-2006, 11:37 PM   #358
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Default I know why people race 19t.

I think because mod is too fast and it's so hard the chassis. Todays TCs are not built to withstand mod racing. They don't hold up. My two cents.
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Old 11-24-2006, 11:43 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
This is not about going slower. This is about fear of change.
I'm with the other guy. I now have 8 cars setup with brushless. And about 30-40 setup brushed. I can take it or leave it (brushless).

Change doesn't scare me any. From a business standpoint, YEA BUDDY! bring on the new rules. But I'm personally against the lower cell count rules, it's not the solution. And that's only if the question is how to improve reliability even further.

What I am afraid of is having rules stuffed down our throats that we didn't ask for. Kind of like the way brushless magically appeared in ROAR, and the RC community has been paying for that R&D for 4 years now...

Bring on the "DEBATE" for change, and the voting for "change", and we will have a fair/democratic discussion.
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Old 11-24-2006, 11:47 PM   #360
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Seriously though, we as North Americans should possibly leave this thread, now that we have a ROAR thread with the same discussion.

We are muddying the water for those involved in EFRA that would like to further discuss how this DIRECTLY effects them.

I am trying to slowly work my way out of posting so much in here and moving over to the ROAR specific thread.
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