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Old 11-24-2006, 07:29 AM   #331
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Post 307 is o so true and correct...
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Old 11-24-2006, 07:36 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar Jansen
Post 307 is o so true and correct...
Yep
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:16 AM   #333
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@post 307

sorry folks, I cant dissagree any more!

Its always the same: electric racers have to get the best batterys to have a chance of winning anything. As soon as the equippment is so good, that runtime and power is no major issue, the rules get changed so its back to the old... It was exactly the same with 1/12th here in Europe, when we used GP3300 batteries I never saw a car dumping with 6-cells, and boy, where they fast! In that time we had to switch to 4 cell (soon after I quitted racing, btw), it was a total different league! The power difference was even more than expected. Now ist the same with touring: the cars are so fast, that noone is limited in his laptimes because he cant use the fastest motors or cant adopt his driving style to be as economical as nececery to make the 5 minutes, it is just about handlig a powerful car and racing it. Thats what racing is all about, isnt it? With 5 or even worse 4 cells the search for the best batteries will start again, and no private racer will have a chance at big races.
So i think 4 or 5 cell is totaly wrong, and dont tell me, that it is not possible to build speedos and motors that can handle those cells, everything is possible!
Also I dont really like to exclude LiPo batterys from RC Car racing, but that is exactly what this rule is doing!

I was in the process of deciding of getting back to racing, but now my decision is easy: off course not, I will stay with my 6-cell tourer and start hunting the IC boys instead!

@ Reto and Oscar: I truly believe that the rules should not be like you (as manufacturer) would like them, they should be like WE, the paying customer and racer like them. And at least here in Europe, with our big tracks, we can use the power off the new cells in 6-cell configuration, and not only CAN we use it, we WANT to use it!
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:27 AM   #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
I'll chime in as in "internet expert".

It's not that most of us aren't interested or willing to look beyond the norm, it's what a few of us believe is a rule for the USA that was not asked for by the majority and could potentially be stuffed down our throats over scenarios that do not effect 99% of the racers in North America.
This is precisely my issue with this as I have stated on the 4 cell TC thread.
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:28 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by John Doucakis
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Rarely do the racers in Europe complain on the internet.

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Old 11-24-2006, 08:34 AM   #336
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It seems that writing in this forum is like talking to a brick wall.

Nobody pays any attention to what is written, and just comes back to speak of their own experience.
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Old 11-24-2006, 08:39 AM   #337
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The thing is that paying customer have run classes into the ground before.

Pro-10 and 4WD Dirt Oval are two good examples of classes that got out of control and died becuase guy wanted to go faster and faster to the poin beginers had no place to start out. It was 100mph or nothing so to speak.

Touring cars are a big deal. The industry want to protect this class so it has a long term future. If we go to 4 or 5 cells it will have zero impact on the popularity of the class.

Just like oval some guys will quit but they will be replaced by the newcomers and a year or two later most of the guys that quit will see how well its working and come back.

Guys just want to race. They have motor choices so they can go just as fast or faster than they are going now even with 4 cells.

This is not about going slower. This is about fear of change.
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Old 11-24-2006, 09:09 AM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
This is not about going slower. This is about fear of change.
Noone fears the change to Brushless, IB4200 or even LiPo, so that is just not true! Why do all guys working in this industry think that they know better what we want as we do for ourselfs?
Pro10 died because you had to use magic tire treatment to have any chance off using the power that was avialable (at least it was here).

We got a new track a few hundred km away from my home, where a friend of mine lives. I fitted him out with a TC4 FT, Nosram 3* brushless, GP3300 cells, good charger and cheap radio, all in all he spent about 700€ (i know its a lot, but money well spent). After 5 days of practising he is one of the fastest electric guys (never touched a transmitter before) and cant wait to buy a faster Motor/Speedo combination (so much about beginners not able to handle the power).
Most guys who where fitted out from the local hobby shop who bought entry level equipment spent around 300-400€ but are frustrated now, as they see how much easier everything is when you start with good stuff right from the beginning. Even now they have to throw away everything they just bought, if they want to have something proper!
Beginners are atracted from fast cars, and cant be more distracted as beeing told to not be able to buy stuff good enough for top results. At the tracks I know (quite big outdoortracks) the development of the cars got to a level where lots of beginners could have been atracted, the new rules will atract noone.
BTW: above mentioned TC4 is faster than the most IC guys there (mostly Kyosho), THAT is what atracts spectators and beginners to electric cars, if they are faster than IC!
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Old 11-24-2006, 12:43 PM   #339
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Oscar is correct in saying that Reto is correct.

In europe we have defenetly had problems - i lost count on the number of arms blown at one UK national this year. I got to 3, and by then hadn't really got any left!!!

There were also problems at the Euros in Germany. Funnily enough, i think i saw more stuff blow in the dry than i did in the wet - it's usually the other way round
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Old 11-24-2006, 02:37 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattW
Oscar is correct in saying that Reto is correct.

In europe we have defenetly had problems - i lost count on the number of arms blown at one UK national this year. I got to 3, and by then hadn't really got any left!!!

There were also problems at the Euros in Germany. Funnily enough, i think i saw more stuff blow in the dry than i did in the wet - it's usually the other way round
So in your particular instance, are you blaming the batteries for a problem you had with the motor... Perhaps a better motor would have solved the situation?

Also, it should be noted that the majority of European tracks are like massive 1/8 gas tracks, and not what the majority of North American racers run on.

For the most part we don't race in the wet either, not good or bad, just that there are differences in the racing on different continents, and it's possible that different needs will arise.

I have no numbers to back this up, but is it fair to say that the majority (and the use of the word majority implies that there will be exceptions) of the North American tracks are around 36x80 feet and carpet? With a track that is 48x100 considered Massive by club standards, but the norm for large an national events?
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Old 11-24-2006, 02:54 PM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Doucakis
I think this forum, rctech.net, is not a good reference in order to understand what the market needs.

In this forum the majority who post are from U.S.
I think you are mostly right, but having said that, It is a good reference for what the market needs, in North America, if there are more of us on here. And would be less of an indicator of what is required if there are less of you folks on here.
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:02 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
So in your particular instance, are you blaming the batteries for a problem you had with the motor...
Like you can blame the brain for what the hand is doing
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:15 PM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
The thing is that paying customer have run classes into the ground before.

Pro-10 and 4WD Dirt Oval are two good examples of classes that got out of control and died becuase guy wanted to go faster and faster to the poin beginers had no place to start out.

I beg to differ on that. I have a fair amount of dirtoval experience, ran it back in the day and won a few titles when a ROAR regional was considered to be quite an achievement and had some prestige.

BATTERIES killed dirt oval. compounded by no variety in the racing. Nobody except the top guys could make time. Dirt Oval died because you just couldn't get enough battery. And that wasn't just the 1% guys, that was anybody with a car. Additionally, unless the track changes, it doesn't take to long before the average club race guy says, "...Hmm, I have never even run one lap within a second of the leaders, and unless the track changes, I will never win, I have no chance to win...." With on-road, the track changes, corners change, car setups change, sometimes a track will fit your style and you will do better. As an example, I suffer with 180s at the end of a straight, others with sweepers, or chicanes. Sometimes a track will suit you, sometimes not, that's part of the fun.

I have a theory on pro-10. I think it died because the tracks had to be perfect, and pro-10 came around when the average club was racing 1/12 on 6 foot lanes, plus there was nothing to work on. The car was to simple. There is no additional "hobby" to the hobby if it's ONLY about racing. Working on the car, the shocks the diffs, droop, all the stuff is part of the hobby. Out of site, out of mind. People pick up a hobby to fill their time. If it doesn't fill their time, THEY FIND A DIFFERENT HOBBY.

Also, Pan cars have been on the come back around here. Especially in Canada. The tracks are wide now because of touring, you have WAY more power than you can ever use, and guys that want to run an additional class are giving it a look because it's track time, it's SUPER FAST, easy to maintain quick at the track, and it's cheap filler class. You can go fast with pan on your mod tourings leftovers and junk, making it a good value for those that are looking.
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:17 PM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
So in your particular instance, are you blaming the batteries for a problem you had with the motor... Perhaps a better motor would have solved the situation?

Also, it should be noted that the majority of European tracks are like massive 1/8 gas tracks, and not what the majority of North American racers run on.

For the most part we don't race in the wet either, not good or bad, just that there are differences in the racing on different continents, and it's possible that different needs will arise.

I have no numbers to back this up, but is it fair to say that the majority (and the use of the word majority implies that there will be exceptions) of the North American tracks are around 36x80 feet and carpet? With a track that is 48x100 considered Massive by club standards, but the norm for large an national events?

Hence this is why this has been an EFRA vote for the european market

Interesting why ROAR has gone 4 cell then
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Old 11-24-2006, 03:24 PM   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Touring cars are a big deal. The industry want to protect this class so it has a long term future.
It appears that I spend enough being indifferent to Adrian's views, that it's fair to point out when I do agree.

On this point above, I agree. I think it's fair to protect the class. Okay, so how is that done? And done in a way that appeases the North American crowd. Afterall, we are interested in making the racers happy, aren't we?
And now that I type that, I realized that we are on the EFRA thread. We should really take this over to the ROAR thread.

Did it turn out for the best that pan and dirt oval went their seperate ways? I think it's safe to say we wouldn't have touring if we had spent time protecting pan and dirt oval.
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